Francona Deserves Credit

[Johnny_RedSox]

I will admit that Terry Francona was a flat out mess in thr first half of the season and made many mistakes...

but this guy is doing an AMAZING job in the post season

 

he has handled the bullpen very effectively, OUTMANAGED Joe Big Nose Torre, stuck with Marke Bellhorn even when Bellhorn seemed to have a hole in his bat, and we were all crying for Pokey Cheesesteak Reese to come in

 

and i swear to God, this is the first manager that puts out awesome line-ups each night. I love the ay he plays around with the number 5 hitter (Varitek, Millar), the way he plays with the number 2 hitter (Bellhorn, Cabrera)

 

he took heat in Game 1 for starting Wakefield, but guess what we won and now have Curt and Jesus the next 2 games.

 

If we had Francona last year instead of Chicken Liddle, mayeb we would have beaten the Yanks also. Francona works hard and in my books i like the job he is doing.

 

The sign of a great player and manager is how they do when it counts, Francona is passing up to now!!

[noonanberg]

I must say Francona is growing on me as well. Minus the occassional lapse of mind (see PEDRO: Game 7), Francona has been doing a better job. He continues to stick with players, and as shown with Bellhorn and Damon, it pays/paid off. I still wish he would play Mientkiewicz more because I really don't see Millar ever coming around that much, and Mientkiewicz would probably thrive if given a shot. Otherwise, Francona has done a great job with the staff, including kind of slipping Arroyo into the late reliever role and managing the 'pen well. I also think Tito is a much better press guy than Grady was too. When he speaks he sounds pretty smart and he cracks the occassional joke too. Keep it up Tito!!!!!!!!!!!

[ahhchon]

francona did not outmanage joe torre. the yankees just forgot how to play baseball.

 

john

[schillingouttheks]

that is correct.

 

torre>francona

 

ill take torre over francona anyday.

[Johnny_RedSox]

you guys dont understand baseball if you did not see Torre get out managed

 

the wise baseball fan, saw this!!

 

be more alert when watching baseball, look at the game behind the game!!

[yeszir]

Originally posted by Johnny_RedSox@Oct 24 2004, 03:46 PM

you guys dont understand baseball if you did not see Torre get out managed

 

the wise baseball fan, saw this!!

 

be more alert when watching baseball, look at the game behind the game!!

Torre wasn't outmanaged. The sox won in spite of Francona. Name one thing Francona did well and one thing Torre failed at.

[mosox]

Torre did not have the arms to make brilliant moves, and besides when his closer Rivera can't save two games in a row, how does that make him outmanaged?

Francona has held together things well, but even last night in the 6th he let Arroyo pitch to Walker with two out and the tying run on, while Myers was warming up. Walker hit a double to tie the game. Why warm up the "situational" lefty and not bring him in at a critical moment to face a left handed hitter? That's why some of us scratch out heads and wonder about Francona.

[schillingouttheks]

agreed, i think francona has been solid in the postseason, with minimal critical moves. torre was solid the whole year, he did everything he could with his team but nothing he thought of went the right way, simply because his team sucked in the last 4 games. torre was solid the WHOLE YEAR. if torre had a team like the sox who knew how to play baseball at critical times in the season, he would have been awesome.

[jlcrss9]

and francona's mistake in game 7 wasnt putting in pedro, although that was dumb, the big mistake was taking our Lowe. he had thrown 69 pitches through 6 innings and was unhittable.

[Johnny_RedSox]

lets forget that he stuck with bellhorn and damon and saved pedro and now have our 2 aces and are up 1-0

 

he is doing a very good job, we could pick at small things at every manager

[element1151]

Originally posted by jlcrss9@Oct 24 2004, 02:15 PM

and francona's mistake in game 7 wasnt putting in pedro, although that was dumb, the big mistake was taking our Lowe. he had thrown 69 pitches through 6 innings and was unhittable.

He was on 2 days rest.

[ahhchon]

Originally posted by Johnny_RedSox@Oct 24 2004, 05:41 PM

lets forget that he stuck with bellhorn and damon and saved pedro and now have our 2 aces and are up 1-0

 

he is doing a very good job, we could pick at small things at every manager

i would have done the same thing..

 

don't tell me that i wasn't watching the game right after you tell me that francona out managed torre.

 

john

[Johnny_RedSox]

FRANCONA OUTMANAGED TORRE

 

CASE CLOSED

 

BE POSITIVE AND JUST ACCEPT THE FACTS

 

GO SOX GO

 

GO NATION!!

[CrespoBlows]

Torre started Brown (Game 7)

Torre put in Vazquez (Game 7)

Torre didn't pinch hit for Clark (Game 6)

Torre didn't pinch run for Sierra (Game 6)

Torre didn't bunt on Schilling (Game 6)

Torre didn't run on Wakefield (Game 5)

Torre didn't pinch run for Shef (Game 5)

Torre left Gordon in too long (Game 5)

Torre put Rivera in too early (Game 4)

Torre put in Quantrill to get Ortiz (Game 4)

 

that's what Torre did wrong

[Johnny_RedSox]

also left Gordon to face Ortiz in Game 1

 

im glad you see these things!!!

 

Torre was outmanaged and bad, all the baseball people know it

 

great thread CrespBlows!!

[schillingouttheks]

apparently u only went with the fact that the red sox won the series over the yankees to come to the conclusion torre was outmanaged. u couldnt name one thing torre did wrong after being asked many times, and u kept BSing your way saying how we werent watching games, but never said a fact until crespoblows made that good post, and now im scratching my head (NOT BECAUSE OF U, BUT BECAUSE OF CRESPOBLOWS GOOD ANALYSIS). even so however, all teh things wrong that torre did in the series all fell into the games that we won. torre was not outmanaged the whole series, we were in an 0-3 hole at one point you know, i dont call that francona outmanaging torre.

 

also, even in games 4 and 5, the managing seemed equal, those games both went deep into extra innings. so because of this, i have to think that torre managed overall a little worse, but in no way was he drastically outmanaged. remember, we won ONE more game than the yankees in this series.

 

however, was torre outmanaged during the regular season? i sure dont think so, the yankees won the al east, and francona sucked in the regular season, and is now stepping up to be a great manager.

 

im not saying francona is a bad manager, im saying that torre didnt do as bad as your making him out to be.

[CrespoBlows]

I can't crtitize a manager unless they lose, I can look at Francona's mistakes as well

 

Not pulling Schilling (Game 1)

Putting Wake with the wind at his back (Game 1)

Not pinch running for anyone on base with Roberts in the 9th (Game 1)

Not really any glaring errors (Game 2)

We were just killed in game 3 (Game 3)

Leaving Petey in too long (Game 5)

 

As you can see Francona did a pretty good job after game 3. Our batters couldn't hit so save their lives in Game 2, and no one could miss a bat in game 3, so you can't fault Francona. He used the bullpen like a genius would afterwards.

 

Good move by Francona in this game improving the defense with a 5 run lead.

[schillingouttheks]

right, u just proved my point.

[Johnny_RedSox]

great job by Terry to put Varitek back in the 5th hole, he delivered early

 

great job to save Pedro for sa hotile game 3 in st. luois

 

this guy is doing a great job!!

 

GO SOX

 

START SMILING YOU NERDS!!

HAHAHAHA

[elsrbueno]

I think Francona's doing a great job in these playoffs. He brought in Embree to pitch the whole inning instead of a a situational lefty, he brought in Timlin for the 8th, and Foulke for the 8th and 9th.

 

That's how the Sox should do it. Get 6 innings from their starters and let the rest of the bullpen close it out.

 

I like Cabrera hitting second.

 

I like Varitek hitting behind Ortiz.

 

I think Terry's done a good job. All his moves seem to be working right now.

 

I also believe that Joe Torre was victimized by having an inferior team, but he also made some curious moves. I thought Loaiza pitched really well in the ALCS (despite losing game 5), and I'd have used him after Brown (instead of Vazquez).

 

Both managers were forced to overuse thier closers (ALCS) and Foulke outpitched Rivera (I still can't believe it, what an amazing job by Foulke).

 

Torre is a GREAT manager. I firmly believe that. The Red Sox were a superior team in 2004, and that's why they won the ALCS. Torre did a good job to get that group to game 7 of the ALCS, considering Brown, Vazquez, and Mussina all performed below expectations during the regular season.

 

I have a lot of respect for Torre and the job he does in New York. That being said, Francona's done a fantastic job in the playoffs so far too!

[yankthis]

"Get 6 innings from their starters and let the rest of the bullpen close it out"

 

They should try to get 9 innings from their starters. Granted, the Schilling situation is an anomaly, but they should try to get 9 innnings whenever possible. Bullpen bodies there *just in case*.

 

Too many times a game gets blown because somebody who had it UNDER CONTROL got yanked for having "104 pitches", and an unknown variable (a reliever) get thrown in and gets rocked. Let your starter throw another 18 or so if that's what it takes to close the door.

 

These are big men; professional athletes. Make them do what they get paid well to do. If they are in a hurry to get back to the locker to powder their nose and rub skin lotion on their legs, trade them to the Yankees and sign some MEN.

 

In the old days, a good pitcher would pitch 9 innings almost every day. And that's after drinking hard all night! None of this "relax at the spa for 5 days" and "you have a quota of 70 pitches today" girlie-man pansy BS.

[Johnny_RedSox]

I hope the Sox can get a few early runs, Pedro will be more relaxed and hopefully can go 7 strong innings!

[yankthis]

Yeah and the Cardinals' home stats are pretty scary. It aint over till it's over, and I won't be too comfortable if the Sox can't lock down a third win in the third or fourth game. If the cards were to win 2-of-3 at home, things could start getting a little bit freakay.

 

On a side note, after this year's ALCS, the World Series is an anticlimax. Maybe it's just me, but the excitement just isn't there. The ALCS was bigger than the World Series in more ways than one.

[Sizzlin22]

Francona has done a great job and yes Torre made some mistakes but I'll jsut say t hat the manager is not a huge role of baseball Mckeon (sp?) said that alst year and I agree the manager can only do so much it's really up to thge players to perform but I will say francona hasd done a good job.

[elsrbueno]

Originally posted by yankthis@Oct 25 2004, 10:09 AM

"Get 6 innings from their starters and let the rest of the bullpen close it out"

 

They should try to get 9 innings from their starters. Granted, the Schilling situation is an anomaly, but they should try to get 9 innnings whenever possible. Bullpen bodies there *just in case*.

 

Too many times a game gets blown because somebody who had it UNDER CONTROL got yanked for having "104 pitches", and an unknown variable (a reliever) get thrown in and gets rocked. Let your starter throw another 18 or so if that's what it takes to close the door.

 

These are big men; professional athletes. Make them do what they get paid well to do. If they are in a hurry to get back to the locker to powder their nose and rub skin lotion on their legs, trade them to the Yankees and sign some MEN.

 

In the old days, a good pitcher would pitch 9 innings almost every day. And that's after drinking hard all night! None of this "relax at the spa for 5 days" and "you have a quota of 70 pitches today" girlie-man pansy BS.

It's the manager's job to decide when the starter no longer has that control. Too many times a pitcher gets left in too long and gets fried in the 7th or 8th inning even though he cruised through 6 because his arm is TIRED.

 

Martinez ESPECIALLY. He's just not the same after 100 pitches. He should pitch 6 or 7 innings (depending on pitch count) and then Francona should yank him out of the game!

 

The bullpen guys are effective, and are there for a REASON. Why burn out your starters if the bullpen guys are ready and able?

 

in Game 7, Derek Lowe was pitching on 2 days rest, and YES, he was cruising... but it gets to the point where your arm is just too tired to get the job done.

 

It would be nice if the starters could go 9 innings every time out, but in 2004, it's just not going to happen. It doesn't happen. You've got to be smart and bring in a reliever BEFORE the starter blows the lead.

[Johnny_RedSox]

elsrbueno - you are correct, the magic # for Pedro is 100!!!

[CrespoBlows]

6 innings is the limit for Pedro unless his count is in the 80's

[yeszir]

Originally posted by CrespoBlows@Oct 25 2004, 08:28 PM

6 innings is the limit for Pedro unless his count is in the 80's

Just from watching him, and from recent memory, I bet he could go 7. The one thing that I have agreed with with FOX broadcasters in the past, however, is that relief pitchers should always be brought in to start an inning when possible. It always seems that when Pedro or anyone leaves after giving up hits with only one or two outs in an innings, a mess is sure to follow.

[Johnny_RedSox]

did Pedro hit 95 mph in Game 7?

 

i believe 2 pitches hit that speed, and i dont believe any of his pitches hit that speed in any of his other post season starts this year

 

i hope he has gas in da tank!

[yeszir]

Originally posted by Johnny_RedSox@Oct 25 2004, 09:38 PM

did Pedro hit 95 mph in Game 7?

 

i believe 2 pitches hit that speed, and i dont believe any of his pitches hit that speed in any of his other post season starts this year

 

i hope he has gas in da tank!

He hit 95+ several times, also during game 5 of the ALCS. It's crazy. He's really been digging deep and turning it up a notch.