moonslav59

Indeed.

In terms of the return, yes. I do not think LA wanted Price. The way the trade worked out, had they not given Downs if Price was not in the deal, then not much changes, but we’d have theoretically spent less on other players in the following years other than 2020. I do think we’d have traded Betts without Price if nobody took half his contract, but who knows the return.

Non pitchers list

Okay, but you don’t replace your roof every year.

I guess a lot depends on thinking we could or could not have won without him. I think it's a close call, but I'd say we needed him. $217M is a lot for 1 ring. One could probably find a cheaper pitcher that would have allowed us to win without him, but hye, a win is a win, and in that sense, it's seems okay. Winning a ring with Rusney on the books does not carry the same weight. Does no rings after the Nate signing mean the deal was bad? If not, why isn't the same standard applied? I thought the Price signing was necessary, as it was also pre-Sale trade. I thought he was as good of a gamble as one could possibly hope for, at the time. He was not old. He was a proven winner. He had been durable. He checked all the boxes, as Scherzer did the previous season, when we signed Pablito & HRam, instead. I get the "ring argument." I use it myself, sometimes. Price did help us win a ring and did well in the playoffs in 2018. I'm not sure that makes him worth $217M and his being a necessary part of the Betts trade makes his deal look worse, to me. Without the ring argument, I think it seems clear he was not worth the money, especially with the Betts trade factored into it. With the ring, it seems like a close call of "worth it," to me.

Let's count the wins and losses in his starts with BOS 20-15 '16 6-5 '17 22-8 '18 10-12 '19 58-40 is very good, but in 3 of the 4 years, we went 36-32 in his starts (23 GS/season)

And for your 10 year old car in need of many repairs?

Very true. Also, if we just hit on 50% of our most expensive 4, 6, 8 or 10 most recent signings, I doubt we'd be sub .500 most of the time. To me, we've had major injury and low performance issues with just about every major signing, except Devers, who just started his 10 year deal, in March. Sale Story Yoshida Giolito JD and Bogey did okay after 2018, but did not produce nearly as much as before 2019. Nate did okay but missed some time and was not really good all teh time, when healthy. It's very hard to win when almost all your highest paid players are on the IL, playing badly, playing worse than their norm or two of these 3 things, almost continually. Certainly, spending less has hurt, but to me, the results of our spending has sucked. It may also be a major reason why JH is avoiding trying to fix these mistakes by repeating them.

No, I don't. That is why I am not saying Cora is wrong. I'm just saying what I'd do. I'd ride the hot hand with Ref, until he shows he can't do it anymore. He was also not bad vs RHPs in '22, so it may not be a fluke. His sample size is not tiny. Wong seems to have come close to proven he is better vs RHPs than Cooper has been in 2.3 years. Ref compares to Coop over a 2.3 year sample size, too, so it's not just a "hot hand." 2022-2024 vs RHPs .918 Devers 1035 PAs) .906 Abreu (236) .852 Casas (541) .748 Wong (441) .746 Valdez (226) .713 Refsnyder (263) .708 Cooper (781) .689 O'Neill .677 Smith .654 McGuire .621 Rafaela (230) .611 Grissom (224) .583 Romy (145) .560 Dalbec hell, EValdez seems like a better choice, right now. I'm fine with Coop getting a nother chance, if he starts hitting LHPs, well.

Yes, the team around Betts after the trade was better in LA, overall. You disagree?

Eye opening. How about 20 game sample sizes: ERA/xFIP First 20: 1.35/2.54 Houck 4GS 0.42/3.66 Crawford 4 1.96/3.74 Whitlock 4 0.82/2.57 Pivetta 2 3.92/3.46 Bello 4 Middle 20: 3.16/3.07 Houck 4 2.88/4.24 Crawford 4 1.40/2.89 Criswell 4 2.13/5.43 Wink 3 1.64/3.54 Bello 2 Last 20 1.05/3.05 Houck 4 6.55/4.64 Crawford 4 6.50/3.76 Criswell 4 4.43/2.77 Pivetta 4 6.14/3.53 Bello 4

I think that came out long ago. I haven't heard they are actively looking to do it now.

I did mention in my earlier post that DD had 4 of the top 6 signings after Theo, but my graphic does show Ben was able to get JH to spend, too. How about this... Ben signed 6 of the 13 player signed for more than $72M. Is $72M a large enough number? Is 5 of 12 over $82M large enough? (1 more than DD) How about 4 of the top 11 at $88M+ (same as DD?) Ben signed 3 of the 9 over $95M. DD signed 4. I think they both were able to convince JH to spend- certainly way more than Bloom + Brez combined.

Assuming we trade Jansen for a prospect, it weakens the 2024 chances, so why not just complete the plan and trade all of the big 4 not extended?

The thing is, he would still "get his shot" as a platoon 1Bman. Granted, it's the short end platoon, but if he started hitting, he could be given more chances vs RHPs, assuming those DH'ing vs RHPs start to slump, too. I'm all for giving guys a shot, but why not give Ref a shot vs RHPs? Wong has already shown he does much better vs RHPs, despite batting RH'd. With him, it's not a short "ride the hot hand" opinion. I happen to like McGuire behind the plate a little more than Cora has played him, there. So far, GS as catcher: 34 Wong/ 26 McGuire. We could have McGuire catch 4 out of 7 games. Wong catch 3 of 7 and DH 3 of 7 and rest 1 of 7. Ref DHs against all LHPs and vs the RHPs that Wong is not the DH. Cooper platoons with Smith, until Casas returns. Nobody is being benched from this group. Perform better and you play more often, and vice versa.

Really? of the highest 24 signed after Theo: 11 by Ben (6 of the big 14) 5 by DD (all from the top 14) Of the top 16 deals of $35M+ 7 Ben 5 DD

Agreed, but he did start only 16 games in '17 and had an okay 112 ERA+ in '16. It was not 3 full years of vintage Price. It was more like 1.5 plus some playoff heroics.

I'd argue Yoshida was a signing based on the lower downs. It was our scouts that loved this guy since he was like 6 years old. The Price signing was not a success, but at least he gave some value for 2+ years. That $217M blew away all other Sox deals, even the Sale extension. It's easy to imagine affording Betts had we not spent on Price or Sale, but with all DD did, I'm not going to roast him for those two signings. He did a great job, and actually ended up providing us with some good young players after the 5 year gap between Devers and Houck/Duran. The shear number of big contract deals DD made dwarfs what Bloom & Brez have done combined. Ben and DD had almost all the big deals. When I bring up $10M spent on Kike, Richards and Kluber- all one year deals as some of the biggest deals since DD left, that pretty much sums up the difference. Even the Barnes, Jansen and Martin deals pale to those DD made. Here are the major signings/extensions since Ben: Ben=Blue DD=Green Bloom=Red 313/10 Devers '24 (extended by Bloom) 217/7 Price '16 154/7 Agon '12 145/5 Sale '20 (signed by DD) 140/6 Story '22 120/6 Bogey '20 (w opt out by DD) 110/5 JD '18 110/8 Pedey '14 95/5 Pablito '14 90/5 Yoshida '23 88/4 HRam '14 83/4 Porcello '16 (extended by Ben) 73/7 Rusney '14 68/4 Nate '19 Mid rangers (note: none by DD): 39/2 Giolito '24 (The only Brez move on this list) 39/3 Vic '13 32/2 Napoli '14 32/2 Jansen '23 30/4 Buchholz '12 27/2 Dempster '13 26/2 Ortiz '14 21/2 J Turner '23 (opted out) 19/2 Barnes '22 18/2 Martin '23 Pretty striking breakdown, if you ask me. 24 deals listed (Did I miss one?) 11 by Ben (6 of the big 14) 5 by DD (all from the big 14 and most notably, 4 of the top 6 in Sox history) 6 by Bloom, but just 3 in the top 14 and 3 in the top 21 ($25M or more) Of the 16 deals of $35M+ 7 Ben 5 DD 3 Bloom 1 Brez

I could see Brez going beyond just trading the "big" 4: Jansen, Martin, Pivetta and O'Neill. When he got here, he very quickly determined who to trade and some were big names or had more than a year of control: Sale & Verdugo Urias and Schreiber Some younger players like Ammons, Robertson & Santos I realize this might not have meant he disliked any of those guys, but rather liked the return better, but I think he has now had time to determine who he might not think is in his longer term plans. I could see him not only looking very closely at McGuire, with team control that ends after 2025, but also others. I'm not an expert on what Brez likes and dislikes about players, but we might be surprised at a player or two he traded, this summer or winter. I don't think anyone was shocked he traded Sale, Verdugo and Urias. The returns upset, some, but those 3 were thought to be trade targets. The Schreiber deal was a little surprising, but it was not a major deal. The prospects given up for O'Neill and Slaten were not major gives. In short, I could see him trade more than just the 4. McGuire

Because I sometimes make suggestions Cora does not follow? I'd give the guy a lifetime services contract, today.

I'm fine with playing Cooper at 1B in a platoon with Smith. What has Cooper done in the last 2.3 seasons to show he deserves to DH over Ref or Wong? He has a .722 OPS since the start on '22. It's .697 since the start of '23. This isn't about a hot of cold hand. He's been bad for over a year or two. He bats RH'd- like Ref & Wong. He done okay vs LHPs, but not RHPs. .666 in '23 (345 PAs) .496 in '24 (68 PAs) He's played in 21 games since APR 30 (started 16) Wong has career reverse splits (.759 v .599) and hits RHPs way better than Cooper. This is not about a month or two of hot hitting, like Ref. v RHP .734 in '23 (295 PAs) .794 in '24 (108) I get how catching is very demanding. I'm not advocating he DH every day he does not catch, but we could let McGuire catch more, so Wong could DH more. McGuire hits lefty and seems to be doing better with the staff than Wong, this year. Now, to Ref: Ref is a notorious platoon type bat. Asking for him to play more is about "riding the hot bat," and I can understand Cora or anyone else not thinking that is a good philosophy. Career: .641 v RHPs .792 in '22 (104 PAs) .466 in '23 (98) .964 in '24 (61) He's only been horrible one year in in the last 2.3 seasons. He's played in one more game than Cooper since APR 30, but he's started only 13 games compared to Coop's 16. I ask why? Hot hand? Numbers since April 30th (Coop's first game with the Sox) All the players that could play, instead of Coop. I'm only saying 2 should have played a few more games than they did... .827 DHam .811 Ref .743 Wong .649 Romy .562 Smith .488 McGuire .464 Cooper Season with the Sox v RHPs .964 Ref .794 Wong .768 Yoshida .752 DHam .658 Valdez .592 McGuire .571 Smith .422 Dalbec .299 Cooper (which is even worse than your fave- Grissom at .334) I'm a huge fan of Cora. I know he understands much more about the game and our players than I do. I make statements about what I'd do or like to see done, more often, but not in a way that is trying to make Cora look badly.

Teel named league PLayer of the Week.

Bold could also be to buy, but he'd need a green light from the higher-up to do that, and there is no indication he'll get it, even if we are 8 games over .500 as we near the deadline. I think he will choose to sell, and will trade all of the 4, assuming they have value in July. There will be no, "I didn't get an offer worth taking." He will take the best offers- liking them or not. Just my opinion.

strange

Indeed. He hit on his major signings- almost all of them.