moonslav59

The funny thing is Houck and Criswell were two of our depth SP'ers.

I meant Romy on the bench

Sign: Tanner Scott, Nick Martinez & Yasmani Grandal Trade: Abreu, DHam & Wink for Mason Miller a really good RP'er 1. Duran LF 2. Devers 3B 3. Story SS 4. Casas 1B 5. Yoshida-Refsnyder platoon DH 6. Campbell 2B 7. Anthony RF 8. Gandal/Wong C 9. Rafaela CF (Bench: Ref, Wong, DHam, Grissom) SP: Houck, Martinez, Bello, Crawford, Giolito RP: Scott, __RP via trade___, Hendriks, Slaten, Whitlock, Criswell, Fulmer, Guerrero

I have no problem with the Nate extension. He missed some time, but he did well, almost every year he was healthy. Overall, it was net plus, but pretty close to break even, which is what you want with FA signings.

It's not old. He's not "super young," either. I would say 21 is on the "younger" side, but he turns 22, soon, and is expected to start in AA, next year. That is not "super young." "Pretty Young!" I guess.

While we shouldn't have expected much from pitchers signed between $5-10M for 1 year, we did not really get what might have been expected. We also got way less from Sale than we paid, and barely broke even with Nate. Barnes? Yuck. Call it bad luck or poor chocies... whatever.

Welcome to the site!

I'm worried JH will take the Dodgers win to mean we don't need great SP'ers, although they did prove you need 17 SP'ers to win a ring in 2024. (They had 10 guys start 6 or more games and 8 start 10+.)

I'm one of the "other posters" who is super high on this guy, despite his flaws. He does turn 22 in December, so he's not super young, but I think he can still improve, quite a bit, and his body has changed a lot in the last few years. It may take some time for him to figure it all out, but this guy can hit!

To me, investing in the rotation, or lack of doing so, is the true measure of how much a team is "in it to win it mode." I'm not sure they ever felt the "rebuild" would be 5-6+ years long, and they'll never admit this is what it was, but the spending on SP'ers over that time is the give-away. It's one thing, if you have a great starting 5 or 6, and you don't invest more, but from 2019 on, it was clearly one of our biggest, if not THE biggest weak area on the team. We could have done better with the money spent, as $10M is not really chump change, but we largely got what we paid for, and our fascination with signing pitchers coming off injuries was a major mistake in planning. I think the idea was that we could stay close to playoff contention as we rebuilt, and we kinds did, at times, but we fell way short of what fans wanted, and I think somewhat short of what JH & Co. expected with the budgets they handed out (2020 not included.) We should have done better, even with the limited winter budgets.I still maintain that the success of the 2021 team only emboldened JH into thinking the plan of winning, while not spending a lot, is possible and very attractive to his bulging wallet. Here is a look at the major contracts handed out, starting in 2018, when we already had Prices $217M/7 deal on the books, as well as HRam, Pablito, Porcello, Kimbrel and Pedey. Notice how the winter additions were not all that grand, the first 2 years listed, here: 2018: $110M/5 JD, $13M/2 Moreland 2019: $68M/3 Nate -just re-signing a current player as was $6.2M/1 for Pearce, and we let Kimbrel & Kelly go with no replacements. Many seem to think the budget restrictions started under Bloom, but actual winter spending on outside players was very limited from 2018-2019. The Sale & Bogey extensions, that kicked in year 2020 was more of the same. The budget went up, so much, due to arb raises and big raises on extensions to Nate & Sale. Some of the biggest contracts handed out after 2019 look like more than 2018-2019, but these signings don't show all the departing players, many with big contracts that were not replaced, in kind: 2020: $145M/5 Sale extension, $120M/6 Bogey ext (opt out,) $6M Perez, $4.5M Pillar, 2021: $10M/1 Richards, $8.5M Ottavino (trade,) $14M/2 Kike, $5M/1 Perez, $3.1M/1 Renfroe, $3M/1 Marwin (The AAV is more than the AAV given to new players in 2018 and 2019 combined!) 2022: $140M/6 Story, $18.8M/2 Barnes extension, $7M/1 Wacha, $10M/2 Paxton, $5M/1 Hill, $8M/2 Diekman, $3M/1 Strahm (This winter was no chump change winter, but other than Story, it was spread pretty thin, out of necessity, due to a shallow 40 man roster.) 2023: $90M/5 Yoshida (+ posting fee,) $32M/2 Jansen, $14M/1 Turner, $10M Kike, $10M Kluber, $17.5M/2 Martin, $7M Duvall, $18.8M/4 Whitlock ext, $3M Mondesi (Again, not really chump change, but when you lose the talent we lost, along the way, these guys pale in comparison.) 2024: $313M/10 Devers ext, $38.5M/2 Gio, $5.9M O'Neill (trade) $10M/2 Hendriks (Bello and Rafaela ext) The Devers deal blows away other winter spending, by itself. 2025: TBD

Yes, and last winter there really were not a lot of reported "interest" in others. The Yamamoto interest was a total sham from day 1. I thought Imanaga and Lugo would have been much better deals that Gio, both before and after their signings. I also liked Wacha and Sonny, but Monty was high on my list, too, so nobody is perfect. It's interesting to look at out largest pitcher contracts since the Sale and Nate deals: $55M/6 Bello ext $38.5M/2 Giolito $32M/2 Jansen $18.8/2 Barnes ext (later traded away) $18.8M/4 Whitlock ext $17.5M/2 Martin (Before the Bello ext & Gio signing, the top 4 were RP'ers) $10M/1 Richards $10M/1 Kluber $10M/2 Paxton $10M/2 Hendriks $8.5M/1 Ottavino (trade) $8M/2 Diekman (later traded away) $7M/1 Wacha $6M/1 Perez '20 $5M/1 Perez '21 $5M/1 Hill $3M/1 Strahm Arbs: $8.3 ERod '20 (did not pitch) $8.3M ERod '21 $7.5M Pivetta '24 $5.4 Pivetta '23 The Sale+Nate deals were almost as much as the top 10 deals, in 5 years combined ('20-'24.)

Yes, and last winter there really were not a lot of reported "interest" in others. The Yamamoto interest was a total sham from day 1. I thought Imanaga and Lugo would have been much better deals that Gio, both before and after their signings. I also liked Wacha and Sonny, but Monty was high on my list, too, so nobody is perfect. It's interesting to look at out largest pitcher contracts since the Sale and Nate deals: $55M/6 Bello ext $38.5M/2 Giolito $32M/2 Jansen $18.8/2 Barnes ext (later traded away) $18.8M/4 Whitlock ext $17.5M/2 Martin (Before the Bello ext & Gio signing, the top 4 were RP'ers) $10M/1 Richards $10M/1 Kluber $10M/2 Paxton $10M/2 Hendriks $8.5M/1 Ottavino (trade) $8M/2 Diekman (later traded away) $7M/1 Wacha $6M/1 Perez '20 $5M/1 Perez '21 $5M/1 Hill $3M/1 Strahm Arbs: $8.3 ERod '20 (did not pitch) $8.3M ERod '21 $7.5M Pivetta '24 $5.4 Pivetta '23

The Criswell Quicksand Theory

Exactly! Richards + Kluber + Paxton= 3 years of about that much. 🤪

Not many of us mentioned wanting Imanaga or Lugo. It seemed like Sonny Gray or Monty seemed like the faves by those who knew we were never getting Yamo. Hell, had we just signed Stroman or Flaherty, instead of Gio, we'd have likely snuck into the dance.

The "plan" might be set something like this: we have 4 pitchers who should give us 25+ starts and 2 that are 50-50 at giving us that. That comes to 5 starters, and have some extended depth on top, and let's roll. I remember before 2023 saying, maybe count Paxton and Sale as one starter and 30 GS, between them. They gave us 39, and we still came up short on our rotation. (Kluber+Whitlock only got 19 GS between them.) In 2022, I remember thinking Wacha and Hill were injury prone, but they ended up 2nd and 3rd on the team in GS with 26 & 23. (Nate+Whitlock=29) This year, we doubted how good Gio would be, but most expected 25+ GS, unless he sucked and was demoted. Injury was not expected. The Whitlock injury was more or less expected, but man, just 4 GS- and good ones, at that. We did get 26 GS from 4 guys, including Houck, who some felt was going to be the 6th starter. 33 Crawford, 30 Houck & Bello, 26 Pivetta, the team GS leader since 2021. Criswell got 18 starts, and the team went 12-6 in those. In 2021, all 5 of our expected starters had 22 or more GS, and Houck took up the slack with 13 GS and the best ERA of the top 6 SP'er at 3.52. (Sale started 9 at 3.16) 159 games started by 7 guys. It's no co-inkidink we went to the ALCS.

By about $11.25M a year. 🤪

I'm assuming the lack of pitching additions was based on a tight budget, and the belief that we "had enough," already, and probably Sale was part of the plan, when he looked okay over the winter.

I just don't think any of us know more about these inner circle guys to have a strong opinion on one of them. Yes, say the whole group has been awful for a while, but changes heave been made, up and down, and it takes time to see results. Too bad, we've already waited long enough, already.

He is one guy out of many. I'm not sure what they like about him, and he did not seem to have success with the Yanks, but I'm not sure anyone can be judged by just one thing like that. Like you, I have my doubts and wonders about him, but I'm not sure he's such an important guy in the whole scheme of things.

True, but the grumbling on Sale was that we didn't add enough pitchers every season because "the plan" was that he'd be healthy, and he never was... until we traded him. Then, he does well, and we hear, "See, he was looking healthy in 2023, near the end, so we should have planned on him to pitch for us." I do agree: we should have planned on Whitlock in the pen and Sale as our SP, with others as depth.

Anyway, it's not about whether or not someone caused the loss, only about people blaming someone for losing. Clearly, they did on that one.

Mine was Jimmy Valvano running around the Fenway infield looking for someone to hug... err....ummm, oh wait....

Hard to know, for sure. How are you so sure?

I clearly blamed McNamara by name.