moonslav59

I've been saying all along that people don't change that radically overnight. I'm not sure Beckett was the ring leader or even a major part of the clubhouse problems. I'm just saying I think the whole team tanked. They pissed away a playoff slot, and I think their collective attitude had a significant role in their demise. We may never know everything that happened, and there is a chance it's all been overblown, but I think there's a bigger chance it was "underblown".

I don't disagree, but we run the risk of stock falling, if a catcher shows no progress or regresses. I'm with southpaw. I don't think Swihart will ever significantly close the defense gap, so trading him while he still has some stock as a catcher- a super high need area-m ay be the better choice.

I love talking about trade and free agent signing possibilities. I know it's all speculation, but to me, it's better to discuss future possibilities than rehashing what went wrong in 2016.

Im thinking they may want another young LHP like ERod along with Moncada and JBJ. Thats a nice start for Sale and maybe add another piece or two to add another player to the deal.. They may start with that, but no way they get that or anything like that from us or LAD or ATL. It may take a foundation of 2 from JBJ, Moncada or ERod, but to get two of these guys, I'd insist on Robertson & Frazier too.

The 2007 season was much different from his later years. I can't believe I'm defending his defense. I hated the signing and used to argue with softy the clown that we won despite Lugo, not because of him. In 2007, he made only 8 throwing errors. He certainly got to more than 8 balls, since he had the 8th best SS range factor in MLB. He was a big letdown at bat, but we should have seen that coming as well. Once he got injured, he fell off a cliff on defense. His DRS went from 0 in 2007 to -6 in 2008 and -18 in 2009 He was average on defense in 2007 and sucked aftewards.

Makes me think what a bargain Papi was at $16M a year!

Dont look at overall numbers...notice that his splits greatly improve as he makes his way up the ladder...THAT is what Im seeing... I don't see it that way. I see numbers that are hard to figure out, but with small sample sizes, maybe we shouldn't even try. He started out better vs RHPs than LHPs in low A ball, but he didn't even get 100 ABs vs RHPs and was just barely over 100 vs LHPs. I'm not sure I'd call it an improvement in splits to flip the splits to being better vs LHPs, since there are more righty pitchers. Then, although he did narrow the split differential between high A and AA, he was actually worse vs RHPs and LHPs in AA, so I don't call that "improving the splits". Beni's 'improving the splits" was mostly a result of a complete and steady decline of his OPS vs RHPs at every level. I don't know enough about Beni to know how he projects vs lefties and righties, but I'm sure the scouts and management have a better idea than we do. ...then when he was in Boston he didnt get as many opportunitities thus causing the inconsistency IMO. It certainly had something to do with it...there is not nearly enough of a sample size for anyone to say he should be platooned....Farrell is clueless when it comes to that IMO. I think that it wasn't just Farrell that made this decision. It was the right decision. Young was our best hitter vs LHPs, and he was healthy when Beni got called up. Play Beni vs both LH/RH pitchers consistently and I think we will be very pleased. Iagree, unless we get a FT DH, and then Young HAS TO PLAY vs lefties. Maybe we can rest JBJ a few games vs lefties, but Beni will be the main guy on the bench.

Devers took a big step forward defensively. We'll have to "give to get", so I think we may have to part with JBJ, Moncada, ERod or Kopech to get someone like Quintana or Sale.

By Connor Byrne | November 19, 2016 at 10:07pm CDT The White Sox are willing to listen to offers for just about all of their players, and industry sources regard them and the Dodgers as perfect trading partners, according to Yahoo Sports’ Jeff Passan (Twitter links). Ace Chris Sale, third baseman Todd Frazier and closer David Robertson are among the players Chicago could move, and all of them fit the Dodgers’ needs, notes Passan. Meanwhile, the White Sox like several Dodgers – outfielder Yasiel Puig and prospects Cody Bellinger, Alex Verdugo, Jose DeLeon and Willie Calhoun – so it seems the two sides could line up for some sort of deal this offseason. These are the three guys I thought fit the Sox needs. An ace. A set-up man. A one year 3Bman. If we sign Beltran for LF and move Beni to CF, we could include JBJ. If not, including Moncada would defeat the purpose of Frazier as a bridge to Moncada, but I guess Devers could be ready by 2018. They may insist on JBJ and Moncada plus more, but assuming we can get by with just giving one, but then ERod, Kopech or Groome would almost certainly have to be part of it. Are either of these offers good enough (or too much) for Sale, Robertson & Frazier? A: JBJ, Pomeranz (can be flipped), Shaw, Swihart, Barnes, Owens (or Johnson) B: JBJ, Devers, Pomeranz, Swihart, Barnes, Owens (or Johnson) C: Moncada, Pomeranz, Basabe, Swihart, Barnes, Owens (or Shaw) D: Moncada, ERod or Kopech, Basabe, Swihart, Owens

There was on "that other site" too, but take a deep breath and let it go...

That was so long ago...

Maybe I was right about the CWS possibly going into full rebuild mode: White Sox Willing To Trade Any Player With Less Than Four Years Of Control http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/11/white-sox-willing-to-trade-any-player-with-less-than-four-years-of-control.html "...It remains to be seen if the Sox are planning to embark on a full-scale rebuild, though as Olney notes, other teams are becoming and more convinced that Sale will be traded this winter. “And once you trade him, why would you stop there?”

It's the old chicken or egg came first debate. Losing breeds disappointment and sometimes bad attitudes, or do bad attitudes breed losing? Clearly bad things were going on aside from the losing.

I know we've argued this point for a long time. I've played on winning teams that have awful chemistry, but everyone had a strong desire to win. Something happened to cause Beckett not to care anymore. I don't think it was all him, in fact, I'm guessing someone else or others started the cancer that spread quickly and got out of control. I've never said chemistry doesn't matter. I do remember thinking that day Billy Maryin and Reggie Jackson went at it in the dugout on national TV, that they were toast. They ended up winning it all that year, and maybe that's what soured me to the idea that Chemistry and attitude mattered as much as many seemed to think it did. I also remember Manny trying to put Youk in his place in the dugout. I seem to recall soem teammates saying it was a long time coming. Youk was a fierce competitor though, so I think sometimes poor attitudes can be OVERCOME AS LONG AS THE GUY CARES. I respect your opinion a lot. Maybe my position has swung more towards your side over the years, but I don't think I'm all the way there yet.

Sonny has been hurt. The A's are probably kicking themselves for not trading him when his stock was sky high. They may wait and hope he starts off 2017 strongly, and then they'll pounce on the best offer- maybe even before the deadline. If they trade him now, while his stock is low, I'd be afraid they know something about his health (or make-up) that should scare us. I think Sale will be traded. If the CWS get long away prospects for him, we'll know they are in total rebuild mode, and we should go after Quintana, Frazier and or Robertson

I'd gladly give up Pomeranz, if we are adding Sale! I agree that my package is probably not enough, but I'd look for a way to avoid giving up JBJ. Maybe we'd have to add Devers or Dubon. They'd probably want Groome or Kopech.

I realize how many value attitude more than I do. It's an area that's very hard to measure, but it clearly matters to some extent. My point was that I'm not usually one to put much stock into attitude, so if I am saying that attitude made a difference that beer gate season, then it probably did and then some.

We haven't always picked a pitcher with out highest picks. I'm not defending our selections of pitchers. We've had a long stretch of misses. Clearly we have an issue identifying how young pitcher picks project. Here's our top pitcher picks since Buchholz in 2005: 7 TBall (2013) 12 Groome (2016) 19 Barnes (11) 28 D Bard (06) 30 C Kelly (08) 31 Johnson (12) 33 Kopech (14) 36 Owens (11) 37 Light (12) 39 Ranaudo (10) 39 K Johnson (06) 43 C Clay (06) 45 Stankiewicz (13) 45 B Price (08) 55 Hagadone (07) 57 Workman (11) 71 Masterson (06) 77 Wilson (09) 85 S Fife (08) 87 Callahan (12) 88 Shaun Anderson (16) As you can see, we've only chosen 3 pitchers in the top 27 picks in the past 11 drafts- Ball, Groome and Barnes, and Ball is the only top 10 pick we've chosen a pitcher. Our picks from 28 to 85 haven't been that bad. Kelly helped us get AGon. Hagadone helped us get VMart. Stephen Fife had a couple good years, and I think he helped us get Mirabelli back. Alex Wilson has been pretty good, and he helped us get Porcello. Bard gave us 3-4 good years. Others in this group are still in the mix, but other than Kopech, I'm not expecting much. .

I think the situation was probably worse than we think. I bet some crap never came out. When so many players are involved, the problem was serious.In my opinion, it went way beyond beer, chicken, golf and a cell phone call, and I'm not one that credits or blames clubhouse attitude as a significant factor in winning or losing very often.

What if the budget didn't matter, and we went all out to win next year, but still kept the future somewhat in mind? Sign EE $110m/6 Sign Turner $90M/5 Sign G Holland $20M/2 Trade: Moncada, Pomeranz (They can flip him.), TShaw, Owens, Hembree & Swihart For: Chris Sale & David Robertson The 2017 Red Sox Roster 1. Beni LF 2. Pedey 2B 3. Betts RF 4. EE DH 5. HanRam 1B 6. Turner 3B 7. Bogey SS 8. JBJ CF 9. Leon Bench: Young (LF/DH), Vaz ©, Holt (IF/OF), Pablo (3B/1B/DH) [AAA: Hernandez, Travis, Holaday, Basabe, Marrero] SP1. Sale SP2. Porcello SP3. Price SP4. ERod SP5. Wright SP6. Buch (long relief) [AAA:Johnson, Haley, Kopech] Closer: Kimbrel RP2. Holland RP3. Robertson RP4. CSmith RP5. Kelly RP6. Ross [AAA: Barnes, Scott, Elias, Martin, Workman]

I could see number 4 with a Davis trade.

I'm not sure .who was behind it, but I do think something pretty bad was going on. Beckett sure didn't do much to stop or redirect it. That was a damn good team that year. They pissed it away. I'm one to think a leopard never changes his stripes. Sure, people can change, but it's very rare they go from a guy with a killer instinct to a guy who barely cared about winning.

The Red Sox have added righty Kyle Martin and lefty Luis Ysla to their 40-man roster, per a club announcement. Than makes 40. Listed my 40 man roster seniority (year added): 2006: Pedey 2007: Buch 2012: Wright, Vaz, Holt 2013: JBJ, Workman, Bogey, Brentz 2014: Betts, Hembree, Kelly, Barnes, Swihart, Shaw, ERod, Pablo, HanRam, Porcello 2015: Ross, Marrero, N Ramirez, B Johnson, Owens, Kimbrel, Jerez, Hernandez, Young, Price, Smith, Elias 2016: Leon, Pomeranz, Abad, Beni, Holaday, Scott, K Martin, Ysla Interesting notes: About a third of the 40 man roster (13 players) were added since Dec 2015 Robbie Ross is the man in the middle by seniority and he was added in Jan 2015. There's not a single player on the 40 man roster who was added between Aug 2007 (Buch) and July 2012 (Wright). That's about 4 years! Seems odd to think of Wright as our 3rd most senior player and Holt as our 5th most senior player. Here's my take on who might be on "the bubble". They may be traded or DFA'd to make room for acquisitions: (options remaining) 1. Brentz (0) 2. Holaday (0) 3. Marrero (1) 4. N Ramirez (1) 5. W Jerez (2) 6. Workman (2) 7. Elias (0) 8. Abad (0) Not much concern on Rule 5 this year. The following players will be eligible for the December 2016 Rule 5 Draft: Danny Bethea, Ty Buttrey, Jamie Callahan, Carlos Coste, Ryan Court, Allen Craig, Jacob Dahlstrand, Jake Drehoff, Jeff Driskel, Jeffry Fernandez, Pat Goetze, Reed Gragnani, Taylor Grover, Justin Haley, Juan Hernandez, Dedgar Jimenez, Raiwinson Lameda, Anyelo LeClerc, Tzu-Wei Lin, Deiner Lopez, Austin Maddox, Mike McCarthy, Daniel McGrath, Simon Mercedes, Mike Meyers, Mike Miller, Edgar Olmos, Yankory Pimentel, Tim Roberson, Javier Rodriguez, Jake Romanski, Dioscar Romero, Ramses Rosario, Jose Sermo, Teddy Stankiewicz, Aneury Tavarez, German Taveras, JT Watkins, Jordan Weems, Jantzen Witte Minor League Free Agents this winter: Mario Alcantara, Mitch Atkins, Brennan Boesch, Dan Butler, Keith Couch, William Cuevas, Cody Decker, Chris Dominguez, Nate Freiman, Ryan LaMarre, Roman Mendez, Carlos Mesa, Sean O'Sullivan, Henry Ramos, Rainel Rosario, Ali Solis, David Sopilka

Most great athletes have big egos, but I never remember hearing anything bad about him in Florida or during his off year with us in 2003 up until the meltdown.

Found it. Nothing in the article speaks to him not changing from his days in Florida and his 2007 season. It did mention him getting fat during the 2011 season. I think he changed. I think he changed radically. Maybe Lackey was part of the reason. Maybe it was just the wrong mix of players.