moonslav59

I really didn't mean it as "calling you out." I honestly didn't know what you were trying to say.

Although I disagreed with Ben's signing of Pablo, there was a rationale behind improving the offense before 2015 and going for pitching with the big FA class of SP'ers before 2016.

Jay Bruce passed through revocable waivers. I guess we didn't want him all along.

What makes you think Bogey doesn't "care about us", and what does that actually mean? (BTW, I have said over and over that Bogey would be the one "killer B" I'd let go, if I had to choose one.)

I think the hope was that our power house rotation would carry the loss on offense. Right now, we're 9th in runs scored, but we're just 1 run behind 8th place CLE. We may get to 7th (12 runs behind TEX), but it might be hard finishing above 7th. We're 25 runs behind 6th place AZ, 28 behind LAD and 41 behind 4th place NYY.

We scored about a hundred more runs than any other AL team last year. I projected we'd be top 3 or 4 this year without Papi but with a full season from Beni and likely an overall growth from other young players. Finishing 3rd or 4th in MLB last year would have meant we'd have scored 100 or so runs less. We scored 878 runs last year. Minus 100 and we're at about 778. We're on pace for 772 this year. We're not that far off, but it seems like our offense is worse than I expected. If we keep up this hot streak we may end up well within 100 runs from last year. Maybe the league average has risen, so that's why we look worse than expected.

Our catchers have been extremely streaky at the plate this year and in recent years. Many (including myself) felt there was no way Leon could repeat 2016, but there was also little chance Vaz couldn't outhit the 2016 Vaz, Hanigan and Holaday. 2017 catcher OPS: .700 2016 catcher OPS: .665

You claimed I hold the position we have no chance of competing after 2020. That is a constructed position I do not hold and have never stated. Pure "strawman". I do think the odds are strong that DD's recent deals will significantly and adversely affect our extended future (2020 or 2021 and beyond). I have never stated I think we will finish in last place starting in 2020 or 2021, so I have never espoused the "worse case scenario" is most probable. I do think DD has sacrificed a significant part of the future for the present. I'm actually surprised so many here seem to feel our future will be unaffected or at least not significantly seeing us as having a much more difficult task keeping us highly competitive once "the window" closes. I have said it may not end up being a "cliff", but IMO, I think the odds are we will not be highly competitive in 2021 in large part because of the recent deals made by DD. The sheer magnitude of trading away so many good to great prospects just about has to have an adverse affect on the extended future. While it is possible every prospect we traded will suck, I doubt it. We've had a pretty good success rate with our prospects. The other factor is the changing rules with signing FAs and higher penalties for going over the luxury limit, which could possibly include penalties like dropping our draft pick 10 slots or being shut out from signing international FAs for a year. The fact is, it is tougher to build up a farm by having more money. One might look at the changing environment and think it would have been a good time to keep our strong farm to improve our extended future chances at staying highly competitive through the next 6 or 7 years. I was not one to think like that. I wanted to trade some of our prospects in deals like the Sale one or a hypothetical Quintana deal (with 4 years of control). I do think DD went too far and traded too many prospects. You don't. I love the debate. I just don't concoct opinions you don't hold along the way to make my points.

Agree, but if the doctors say Bogey needs a rest, I might have wanted to call up Lin or Marrero to take Bogey's place for 10 days. Plus, Holt is heating up, too.

Andrew Miller to the DL. Breslow signed to minor league deal.

AL Leaders in Winning % .639 HOU .550 BOS .547 CLE .533 NYY .523 KCR .518 TBR .500 SEA The AL East has the best winning% for their 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th place teams. 2nd NYY .533, KCR .523, SEA .500 3rd TBR .518, LAA .495, MN .481 4th BAL .491, TEX .481, DET .467 5th TOR .472, OAK .440, CWS .387 In fact, our last place team, TOR, is better than the Central Division's 4th place team, DET. Our 4th place team, BAL, has a better record than 3rd place MN. TBR has a better record than 2nd place SEA.

I wouldn't have read a good article had harmony not posted the link. I see it as a "contribution".

Price signing = fine. Going rate for a top FA pitcher. He has struggled in some harder to predict ways. His history and mechanics said Lester-durable more than a future injury. I was fine with the signing, but he has come up short on expectations. I was worried about years 5-7 not 1-2. Counting on Pablo = what else could you do? Especially not wanting to block Devers Ummm, keep Shaw as an option at 3B and at 1B, in case Moreland slumped. Again, I was fine with that trade too, but if we are judging in hindsight, then it looks bad. Moreland = I don't think he thought Moreland would replace Papi. But that between Ramirez, and the young guys there would be enough there. And Moreland would be Mitch Moreland (which is to say - not special, but okay filler) I agree, but the results have not come through as planned. Again, I don't blame DD for expecting our offense to do better: I did too. The only really tough move to defend was perhaps the Kimbrel trade - only because of the fungibility of closers. Agreed.

It was meant as tongue and cheek.

Brentz would first have to be added to the 40 man roster. I'd be fine with DFA'ing Selsky or Noe Ramirez. I don't see us benching HRam for Brentz. Once Pedey returns, Nunez will be squeezing Moreland and Young our of a line-up slot. Maybe Brentz could platoon with Beni, but that's not many PAs.' I think we'll see BB in September.

Because I'd have missed the article had he not provided it. Geesh!

No, this was a post within the context that Bogey would go on the DL after Pedey came back. I posted another line-up for after Bogey came off the suggested DL trip with Moreland going to the bench: ...and when Bogey comes of the suggested DL stint... 1. Pedey 2. Beni vs R/Bogey v R 3. Nunez 4. Betts 5. Devers 6. HRam 7. Bogey vs R/Beni v L 8. JBJ 9. Vaz Bench: Moreland, Young, Holt, Leon

Thanks for the link. It's too bad those who judge you harshly don't seem to remember your posts like this one.

One bad trade, in hindsight, at this moment in time. What about the Price signing? Counting on Pablo? Thinking Moreland could replace Papi? His drafts and international signings are still too early to judge, but I will say, I'm happy with what we got with what picks we had.

My problem is not that Dombrowski made trades. It's the extent to which he traded away the farm, and my belief that he did not get sufficient value for some of the prospects traded. I agree, but I will admit that the perceived "insufficient value" we have gotten back in trades are doing better than I expected. I loved getting Kimbrel and expected him to be a top 3 closer for us for 3 years, but I thought we gave up too much for a high-priced RP'er. The closer market has exploded, so that aspect of my original assessment has changed, but I still agree that we gave too much. The Pom-Espi trade has looked like a roller coaster. Pom's injury discovery and weak showing last year looked like we were fleeced. I probably viewed Espi much more highly than many here, and I hated the trade. It wasn't about me not liking Pom. I just thought Espi's super high upside held more value. I have never been against trading top prospects, in fact I probably suggest more trades than anyone here. Pom has done very well, and I cannot criticize DD for making that trade anymore. The jury is still out, but Pom has been a great get. Carson Smith only involved Aro. No harm to the farm. I didn't think we needed to include Dubon to get Thrinburg, and maybe we could have used him to get a useful piece at this deadline, or he might have ended up being a very capable replacement for a departing Bogey to free agency or a big trade away. The Aaron Hill and Abad trades were minor.I loved the Ziegler trade. I liked the Nunez and A Reed trades. One-by-one, these trades look very good, but that doesn't mean each and everyone should have been or needed to have been made. Some of us would have liked to have seen a more balanced approach. Some, like myself, would have preferred us trading our top prospects (and keeping one or two more) for a guy like Quintana and not 1 or two from Pom, Kimbrel, Thornburg and Ziegler, even though all those deals look pretty good at this moment in time. Qunitana might have extended the window to 4 years. He has a 2020 option at just $10.5M!

Agreed. In one sense everyone hitting free agency in such a short period hurts, but the fact that that period is 2-3 years away allows for a pretty consistent core group of everyday players that needs very little tinkering with until then. We might just go with a cheap 1B/DH to replace Moreland/Young/Nunez and count on Chavis, Brentz and/or Barfield to add any depth we might need over the next 2 1/2 to 3 years. We also have Hernandez coming back and possibly Swihart, Lin or Marrero progressing further. The first big (within the window) tests will come, when we have to extend or replace in kind Pom, Kimbrel and Porcello.

Any big trade would likely have cost us Devers (with Nunez playing 3B to end the season). I think DD kept Devers, because he is part of the 3 year window. He was an unblocked ML ready prospect, unlike most of the other prospects traded away.

If all the seats were filled with quality players, we would not have finished DEAD FREAKIN' LAST three out of four years. All of you doomsdayers conveniently IGNORE that fact. We don't "ignore it". We lived with the anguish along with the "pink glassess" of the future crowd. We had some high quality players on those teams. We finished in last place in 2012 with a staff Ben is bashed for disassembling (rightfully so, I might add). We saw HRam and Porcello suck in 2015's last place finish and then win the Cy Young and bat very well in DD's 2016 season. Same talent- different results. I know many of you felt we sucked those years. Kudos to you. The vast majority of baseball people did not expect those rosters to finish in last place 3 out of 4 years. DD is one for one and has chance to go two for two. He's made bold moves. He's oh for 1 in WS rings and far from being a favorite to win this year. DD has filled the bus with true ace in Sale. DD was smart enough to keep Devers and trade away Moncada. Not both as requested by the White Sox. I loved the Chris Freakin' Sale deal. I love our team right now. I think we'll have a good shot to win a ring in the next 3-4 years. This thread is about years 4-7 or so. Nobody id doubting how well DD built up for the 3-4 year window, except for maybe the Shaw deal. Kimbrel will have good three years on the bus as it cruises. The one that got off the bus is in the body shop. You mean Espi? That was the Pom trade. Margot is 15 for his last 35 with 2 HRs. I'm good with DD driving the bus. I'm okay with going for rings in a 3-4 year window. It's better than a 1-2 year window. However, I'm not in denial that the moves he has made won't affect our long term future adversely. The deals he made, IMO, will hurt us down the road. I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Nobody knows anything for sure about 2020 and beyond, but our odds of being highly competitive beyond 2020 are less than if we still had Margot, Moncada (don't judge him too early), Kopech, Espi, Dubon and several more. Maybe it won't be a cliff. I hope the hell not, but the system has made it much harder than before, and we haven't really do to well in replenishing the farm when we had picks in the mid 20's and better access to international FAs. It's not impossible to rebuild while winning, but to deny the extreme difficulty and pretend everything will likely be just fine or to just claim that Henry will just totally change his MO and suddenly become the next George Steinbrenner, to me, is more likely a greater mistake than those of us predicting a probable upcoming cliff.

It helped having the 2nd overall pick in 2013 (Kris Bryant). Maybe we can find the next Bryant with a 25th pick. Maybe not.

Some interesting factoids on our most recent 5 game stretch: 39 runs scored 7 HRs in 5 games. 18 2Bs and 1 3B 21 BBs + 3 HBP + 2 reaches on dropped third strikes. Our two best OPS guys are not Nunez or Devers. Our two best OPS guys are our catchers! 3.000 Leon (granted, he's 1 for 1) 1.524 Vazquez (12 for 21 with a huge HR) A week ago, who would of thought our OPS leaders would be these 6 players? 3.000 Leon 1.524 Vaz 1.415 Devers 1.355 Nunez 1.292 Holt 1.041 Moreland (While this doea show the silliness of small sample sizes, I still think it's kind of amazing.) Who is slumping? .338 JBJ .500 Young (0-1) .623 Bogey .675 HRam Mid land or better: .883 Beni .755 Betts