moonslav59

It's not ideal, but in an elimination game, I'll go with 3-Day Sale over Porcello or Fister. Plus, it allows Pom to pitch game 5, if needed. 2 Sale (one on 3 days rest) 2 Pom 1 ERod vs 2 Sale (one on extra days rest) 1 Pom 1 ERod 1 Porcello/Fister Ideally, we'll be up 2-1, and not need Sale for game 4.

I'm hopeful it was injury-related and not a prolonged slump. We could really use the "old" Bogey, since nobody else seems to be returning to 2016 form.

I think so, too. I have him as our 5 man behind Kimbrel, Price, Reed and Kelly (in that order).

I respect your opinion, but disagree. Now is not the time to discuss all this. Let's be optimistic, like we both have been all year, and wish for the best.

Locks: Kimbrel, Price, Kelly, Reed Likely: Barnes 2 or 3 from: Smith, Workman, Maddox, Scott, Fister/Porcello Long shots or impossibles: Abad, Hembree

My point was, all our starters are better than any PH'ers we have. I guess we may PH for Leon, if he starts.

Well, I'm tired of watching you guys stroke a clown. So, we're even.

The Thornburg and Price deals are the only ones that have not helped the 2017 Sox, yet Larry makes it sound like Jf won it despite DD. Where would we be without Sale and DD's willingness to go all out to get him? Also, Moreland did what we expected. Nunez was a nice get. Calling up the 20 year old, defensively-challenged, Devers worked well. Fister. Maybe even carson Smith and Reed will make a difference.

He overcame Sale. He overcame turning a Cy Young winner into dirt. He overcame Vaz breaking out. He overcame squat. The team overcame all these issues and won, despite JF and all the bonehead plays.

Hard to tell with such a tiny sample size.

Good points. With Smith, Thornburg and Ross out all or most of the year, my expectations were very low for our pen. I give JF some of the credit for the pen doing much better than expectations. Withe Price being out much of the season, and Wright being out all year (maybe because of JF), I wouldn't give JF too much credit for their performance. Pom and Fister did better than expected, ERod about the same and Porcello worse. I get how blaming the manager for a massive offensive decline has its flaws, but I have to think he had some role in it, even if just a little. The great amount of fundamental and mental mistakes is mre easily attributed to the manager, but of course, the players and GM bear most of the brunt of criticism and praise.

There's only 2 guys in my dog house: JF and Holt. HRam is banging on the door to get in. Holt is doing his best to get out. Plus, Holt's issues are almost certainly injury-related.

Oversimplification. You're assuming we were a .500 team on paper and JF helped us win more than we lost.

I can see how someone might think the Yanks have the deepest pen in the AL. The Guardians have a deep one, too. With Price and Smith added to the Sox pen, one could claim they are close. Yanks pen: WHIP pitcher K/9 0.72 Green 13.4 0.73 Robertson 13.1 0.88 Warren 8.5 1.13 Chapman 12.3 1.22 Betances 15.1 1.29 Clippard 10.4 1.32 Kahnle 12.2 1.32 Shreve 11.5 Guardians 0.84 Miller 13.5 0.90 J Smith 10.2 (17 IP) 0.97 Olson 7.8 1.08 Goody 11.9 1.18 C Allen 12.2 1.20 Otero 5.7 1.20 Shaw 8.5 1.21 McAllister 9.4 Sox 0.58 Price 13.5 (8.2 IP) 0.68 Kimbrel 16.4 (YES! 16.4!!!) 0.87 Maddox 7.3 917.1 IP) 0.93 Reed 9.3 1.02 Scott 7.9 1.15 Workman 8.5 1.18 Abad 7.7 1.19 Kelly 7.9 1.25 Barnes 10.5 1.45 Hembree 10.2 Even the Astros have a few very good RP'ers: 0.86 Musgrove 8.9 (31 IP) 0.94 Devinski 11.2 0.97 Harris 10.4 1.04 Giles 11.9 1.32 Hoyt 12.0 1.34 Gregerson 10.3 1.39 Sipp 9.4 Team Stats IP 543 HOU 535 NYY 526 BOS 485 CLE WAR 9.1 NYY 8.4 CLE 6.8 BOS 4.5 HOU WHIP 1.15 CLE 1.17 BOS 1.17 NYY 1.28 HOU K/9 10.9 NYY 10.9 HOU 10.0 CLE 9.8 BOS K/BB 3.65 CLE 3.23 BOS 3.09 HOU 2.89 NYY ERA- 65 CLE 69 BOS 76 NYY 101 HOU

Then, we lost Ross- one of our unsung and most consistent RP'ers in recent years! (I actually made my claim before knowing Thornburg would miss the whole year and while thinking Smith might be back in July.)

Well said, cp. I have seen a reduction if "gaffs" and more focus since bringing up Devers and acquiring Nunez & Reed. The extra inning record attests to the grit this team has. JF deserves some credit for that, but I just can't help but feel that the combination of all the needless gaffs- not the ones caused by just being aggressive- and the massive fall-off from our returning hitters kept us from being the AL favorites and could easily lead to our playoff demise. The Price injury hurt, but the Guardians dealt with Salazar and Brantley injuries. The Astros had their fair share, too.

-No one knows what caused the hitting declines. I don't know on what basis these could be blamed on the manager. Yet, we give him credit for getting the most out of our pen and starters like Pom & Fister. let's just be consistent. Maybe JF's coaches play a role in the massive decline, but the buck stops with JF and DD. I'm not placing 100% of the blame on JF, but when all of ouyr top 8 hitters decline by more than 55 OPS points, and 6 decline by more than 100, I find it hard to believe that it feels like some of you guys don't place any blame on JF. Then, many jump to praise what he did with the pen (me included). -Rick Porcello won a Cy Young, yes, but has generally been a 4+ ERA pitcher. Porcello is on Ben. I loved the Cespedes-Porcello trade and extension. I still do. This season by Porcello is way out of whack with who the "real Porcello is". Counting Rick's first few years in the majors as 'who he is" is not really fair. The guy was brought up at a very young age. He just entered his prime last year. One should not have expected him to revert to his age 20-23 years at age 28. WHIP since age 24: 1.28 1.23 1.36 (1st year in BOS) 1.01 1.40 He's about 0.20 worse than his prior 4 year average. I wasn't expecting another Cy Young, but I do think expecting him to pitch like his last 4 year average as he enters peak prime was actually being conservative. -Wright can be pinned on Farrell, sure, but I have no idea what he had to do with Thornburg's injury. Word was there was some confusion over what his off season work-out regime was supposed to be. You're right, it might have been DD's fault or Thornburg's for misinterpreting what he was supposed to do. Apparently he was doing way more than he was supposed to do, and that's what led to the injury.

As I said, I have not been one to roast JF for in game decisions. I gave him enormous credit for his handling of the staff, especially the pen. I feel my approach has been "moderate". Overall, I think JF has been a negative influence on this team. I respect other people's opinions on this matter. There are some nice pluses JF brings to the team. My point is that if people are going to give JF credit for maximizing the production of our pen and starters like Pom and Fister, then he deserves some blame for the massive decline of basically our whole offense.

I thought about that, but one thing sways the decision. If we are down 2-1, we will pitch Sale in game 4. that leaves the game 2 starter ready to pitch game 5 on normal rest. That should be Pom not Porcello.

Since the last 4 games. Porcello blows Fister away in the last 4 starts, even though he has not looked very good in those 4 starts.

With 3 days off before game 1 and then 2 days off during the 5 game series, it's hard to imagine needing more than 11 pitchers (4 starters and 7 relievers). That being said, our starting 9 will not need to be PH for. We could PR for HRam, Pedey, Leon and Vaz. We could use defensive replacements for Devers and HRam, if he's at 1B, so maybe we don't need a 5 man bench as much as we might need that 8th RP'er- probably a lefty. Tough call. I guess with a sketchy 3 and 4 starters, we may need to go to the pen very early in Fenway and in back-to back games, so maybe you're right- an 8 man pen might be best.

Shows ho much I know. I felt the pen was our "weakest-not weak- link" going into 2017.

I wonder, if he needs surgery. He may forgo it, if the rehab time means he will miss part of 2018 and hurt his chances at vesting the option for 2019.

Theo, Ben, DD The draft Picks: Port: Lester >Cespedes> Porcello Theo: Pedey Ellsbury> Kopech> Sale Lowrie> Melancon> Holt Masterson & Hagadone> VMart> Barnes & Owens C Kelly> AGon> DLR/Webster>Miley>Smith Workman Ranaudo> R Ross Betts JBJ (Comp pick from losing Beltre) Shaw> Thornburg Barnes Swihart (Comp pick for Beltre) Owens N Ramirez Ben Maddox Marrero Johnson (Comp for Papelbon- Theo) Light (Comp for Papelbon)> Abad K Martin Kopech (Comp for Ellsbury-Theo) > C Sale Chavis Beni B Taylor DD J Groome, Dalbec, Chatham, Shawaryn Houck, Brannen, Netzer, Thompson, Scherff Some of the players we have now can be partially attributed to all three GMs or 2 of the 3. Even Port plays into our acquisition of Porcello. International Signings Theo Doubront> Marco Hernandez Bogaerts Margot> Kimbrel Ben Moncada > sale Castillo Devers Espinoza> Pomeranz Lin DD Velazquez Flores D Diaz L Mata Trades/Signings Theo Ben S Wright (L Anderson-Theo) Holt (Melancon & others) Hembree (Peavy Kelly (Lackey-Theo) ERod (Miller-Theo) HRam & Pablo Porcello (Cespedes R Ross (Ranaudo-Theo) DD Kimbrel (Margot, Guerra, Allen & Asuaje- Theo & Ben) Price Young Smith (Miley- Theo & Ben and Aro) Leon Pomeranz (Espinoza - Ben) Abad (Light) Moreland Boyer Fister Nunez, Reed & Davis As you can see, some of these acquisitions are very nuanced when considering who gets credit for us having them. All three GMs have a major role in the construction of today's roster.

8 of our 8 top returning hitters by 2016 PAs declined. Six of them by over 94 points. Our Cy Young winner is now our #5 starter. Wright and Thornburg were out injured all year due to dumb managerial decisions. Yes, I agree JF did an amazing job with our pen- the area I saw as our weakest link back in March. Yes, our starting pitching did well despite the loss of Price, Wright and the fantastic decline of Porcello. Yes, we played better with the additions of Devers, Nunez and Reed. Yes, we won the division 2 times in a row for the first time since 1915-1916. Yes, JF is the only Sox manager to win the division 3 times, but I do feel some context is needed. The 2013-2017 Yanks were not the Yanks that other managers were up against. We finished in last place in 2 of those 5 years. I hate to sound like a negative Nellie at a time when we should be celebrating, but hearing all the gushing over JF has brought me to the point of having to speak out for the "other side" of the argument.