moonslav59

Remember how you Yankee fans said our pen sucked last year? Maybe the catchers brought them up to top 10. Price is getting older and is not the same pitcher he was with the Rays- that's not our catcher's fault.\ Sale is doing better with the Sox than the CWS.

His defense doesn't have to be great to be better than a hobbled Nunez. Holt is not great on D at 2B. I'm hoping we don't have to find another Kinsler this year.

But, it did show a willingness to release Swihart. I think the main reason Swihart is still around is that the state of catching in MLB is just so damn poor. He has shown flashes of hope here and there, and maybe they hoped he'd build value by doing well after HRam was cut. It didn't really happen, but he hasn't really lost value either. My guess is we either trade Swihart as a small part of a package for RP'er, or we keep him until we know about Pedey.

If the Cubs trade Zobrist, they can probably afford Kimbrel.

Getting rid of HanRam had nothing to do with Swihart. IMO. It was clearly about the budget, as we can see now how much spending is available this winter. Trading Vaz or Leon almost certainly means Swihart catches more than 30 games, unless you think we bring up Centano and either keep Swihart or trade him, too. In my view, trading Vaz or leon raises the white flag of Swihart catching too much.

Not unless my scouts really liked two of the guys you listed, but that is not likely. I'd hate to trade Hernandez, so I'd look for any way to avoid it. If teams are not interested in Johnson, I might offer this and get the best we can, even if it's nothing too special: Chavis OR Dalbec- not both Velazquez or Johsnon- not both Swihart and/or Houck/Shawaryn Who do you think we can get for this offer?

I used CERA, but OPS against is probably a better indicator. It was closer on CERA. Here's OPS against: Sale .561 Leon (1250 PAs) .616 Flowers (2227) .622 AJ P (896) .680 Avila (449) Price .599 Avila (451 PAs) .616 J Jaso (778) .634 Molina (1878) .636 SLeon (718) .661 Navvaro (468) .691 McCann (433) .705 Shoppach (675) .735 Vazquez (1113, mostly due to that one "off year")

Do you think Leon can catch over 120 games effectively? If Yes, are you okay with Swihart catching 30-40 games a year? (He does okay with ERod, but who else would he catch?) If no, how about Swihart catching 50-70 games this year? (IMO, "YUCK! comes to mind very quickly!)

I don't think catcher offense or projected catcher offense improvement will be the deciding factor on who to keep. I do think Vaz and Swihart have a much better chance of being decent hitters than Leon, but to me, Leon's numbers with Sale & Price are just too good to mess with this year. To me, Vaz is clearly better than Swihart, so my choice is made. The only reason I'd trade Vaz is to free up budget space for a better RP'er, but even then, I don't want Leon catching more than he did last year, and I don't want Swihart catching much at all.

I've been a big supporter of Leon and Vaz, but I have never come near saying they are the best defensively. I have often acknowledged there are better catcher while warning of a possible learning curve, if we made a switch. I'd say Leon & Vaz are top 10 or 15 out of 60 catchers on defense (individually & combined) and bottom 10-15 on offense (combined). Of course there are catchers out there that can do what they do on defense AND hit better or much better, but it's not realistic to think we should spend our limited resources trying to upgrade the catcher position, when who we got work fine as is and are a net plus overall. Yes, Sale was great before coming here, and putting up a 2.51 ERA with AJ Pierzynski supports your point, but the guy he has had the most PAs against with is Tyler Flowers. Here's a look at the CERAs: 2.42 Leon (319 PAs) 2.51 AJ P (226) 2.98 Navarr0 (just 97) 3.02 Flowers (552) 3.36 Phegley (just 88) 3.40 Vaz (just 53) 3.53 Avila (112) 4.08 Navarez (just 18) David Price is clearly had to re-invent himself, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare his numbers with TB vs BOS. I know it sound contradictory to say the catcher makes a huge difference, then selectively negate the theory when it suits my position, but I think I have a good reason. Price also had one of the greatest defensive catchers of all time, Jose Molina. for the plurality of his PAs against, yet Leon still matched Molina and beat almost everyone else who had over 500 PAs with him. Here's his numbers: 2.83 SLeon (769) 2.85 JMolina (1878 PAs) 3.06 JJaso (778) 3.09 Navarro (542) 3.61 Shoppach (675) 4.32 Vazquez (1113) (Avila, McCann & Martin all got sub 3.00 with Price with between 296 and 451 PAs with him) I'd be thrilled, if we found a catcher like Leon who could hit, but unless we draft one, we can't afford to buy or trade for one, right now. I view Vaz/Leon as a clear net plus, but they certainly are not great or top 5 or 10 in overall value out of the 60 catchers who see the most time behind the plate.

Would it be a sell-off, if they got back ML ready talent like Swihart, Johnson, Velazquez or Chavis? They'd just be upgrading one area by trading from a surplus area.

Well, there are better RP'ers than Kelley out there that make less than $2.5M. That's one reason. If there is a limit on spending, a trade makes sense- maybe a mid season deal makes more sense, since we only pay a pro-rated share of the contract we trade for, but that is tempting fate.

I didn't mean to sound condescending, but there has been some talk of trading Vaz or Leon and letting Swihart catch a good percentage of the games. To me, that is a sign that some may not value that "relationship" as much as we do. They are top 10 out of 50-60 on defense + Pitcher handling. They are (combined) maybe bottom 10 or 15 on offense. The defense is connected to 30-45 PAs a game, while the offense is to 3-5. I know many here "get it." I'm not trying to sound smarter than anyone else, but in my opinion, our catchers are a solid plus and maybe even "special." I know Leon is "special" to Sale, and anyone special to Chris Freakin' Sale is special to me.

$2.5M I guess DD thinks he can do better, perhaps with a winter or summer trade.

I actually think our catchers are a major factor in our success. The catcher position may be the most valuable position per dollar on the team. I realize, I'm probably in the minority on thinking how a catcher's relationship with the staff is extremely important. It is also hard to measure, and for a stat guy like me to hold a position like this, I realize I'm opening myself up for criticism. I know other catchers are as good as our two in these areas, but there would be a learning curve, if we made a change, and I'm not sure we can afford to wait out a learning curve period. Every game counts. To think 3-4 offensive PAs by our catcher in any game is more important than the 30-40 PAs our catcher helps try to make an out from behind the plate is missing the big picture (not that you are missing anything).

Stat Corner has this for 2018's top 32 catchers by pitches caught: + Calls per 9 innings 1. Stassi 0.99 2. Grandal 0.95 3. S Leon 0.89 4. Flowers 0.55 5. Martin 0.52 6. Hedges 0.51 7. Sanchez0.35 8. Zunino 0.29 9. Vazquez 0.17

On our catchers... Some 2018 numbers: Framing Runs 7. Leon 11.6 in 4,892 chances 12. Vaz 9.0 in 4670 chances (Both with less chances than many on the list) 40. Swihart 0.7 in 1209 chances Framing + Blocking + Throwing 7. Leon +11.1 14. Vaz +9.0 out of 117 catchers listed. How about 2017? 111 catchers on the list 6. Vaz +19.6 10. Leon +10.7 https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1899536 These numbers don't reflect staff handling that includes pitch-calling and building confidence and comfort.

We did not "tank" to build our farm to where it was before DD got a hold of it, but we were helped by getting higher draft picks during our 3 last place seasons and a system that rewarded richer teams, at times, with comp picks and loose restrictions on international splurging. We got Michael Kopech as a comp pick for losing Ellsbury, which was an addition by subtraction to begin with.'' We got Beni with the 8th pick in 2015 due to doing so poorly in 2014. We got Groome, Dalbec, Shawaryn and Chatham in 2016 thanks to higher picks due to 2015's poor showing. Moncada, Devers, Espinoza, Margot and several others were snatched from the international market during the years leading up to our high farm ranking under Ben.

You make some good points, but Swihart is no where near an above average catcher. It's hard enough convincing people that the intangibles Leon and Vaz bring to their game makes them a net plus.

Yes, there are catchers who do what ours do on defense and with the staff but also hit better, but I still view our catchers as a strength. They are not the best, but they save so much behind the plate it more than makes up for their poor hitting.

I think they are special. Does that make up for me not thinking our farm is special? LOL

Hey, we had 3 last place finishes in 4 years. One could call that a "tank", although it wasn't. Yes, there are exceptions, but the fact remains, 3 of the top 8 farms saw their ML club win the division. One won the WS 2 years ago and another made it to the WS last year.

I view our catching tandem as a clear strength.

I'm not hearing that many non ex-Sox names.

What's the excuse for the high-spending Dodgers being tied for 5th with the most top 100 prospects? I know none are above #35, but they went to the WS AND have a strong farm and several recent grads.