moonslav59

In defense of Beni, before his last 2 games (0-8), he was... .901 in previous 11 games .880 in his previous 19 games .828 in his previous 43 games Counting the last 2 games, he is at .796 the last 45 games and .806 the last 21 games.

This data not related to our debate.

2018 vs 2019 after 85 Games: 2018 ERA- 2019 18 Workman 36 38 Poyner 329 48 Kimbrel/ Brasier 71 (not on roster in 2018 @ gm 85) 54 Sale 80 58 Barnes 103 60 Velazquez 111 75 Wright 94 75 Kelly/ Brewer 88, Taylor 110 & Smith 113 (not on roster last year) 81 Porcello 106 81 Hembree 52 82 Walden 73 84 CSmith/ Weber 107 (not on roster) 92 ERod 100 96 Johnson 134 96 Price 70 152 Pom/ Eovaldi 125 (not on roster @ gm 85) & Shawaryn 178 Only 3 pitchers doing better. Batting (after 85 games) 2018 OPS 2019 1.103 Betts .842 1.025 JD .915 .889 Moreland .859 .872 Beni .778 .831 Bogey .933 .774 Holt .764 .732 Devers .926 .726 Leon .597 .708 HRam/ Chavis .795 .637 Nunez .572 .616 JBJ .751 .563 Vaz .833 .460 Lin/ Marco .792

Hard to know. Betts is way more expensive and has less control years.

My guess is we don't have enough to add with Beni to get Scherzer, Bumgarner or Syndergaard, but I'd think about Stroman (1.5 yrs of control), John Means (pre arb), Matthew Boys (3.5 yrs) or maybe Caleb Smith (4.5). I'm no expert on other team's players, but I'd give serious thought to these 4. I'm sure more are out there.

I'm thinking our offense can absorb his loss, and the return pitcher's benefit would outweigh his loss. If I don't think the return is worth it, then don't trade him.

I think he may be the one guy valuable to bring back something of value and greater need. My only issue with trading him is that we only have Holt & JD (maybe Pearce someday) to replace him.

We should try hard to acquire a solid RP'er before these series.

Yes, in another team's uniform.

Updated Starter vs Pen Numbers: By Wins and Losses Responsibility Game by Game: Starters 17-23 (-6) Relievers 27-16 (+11) Alternative Scoring System (+2, +1, 0, -1, -2 given for each game) SP +22 RP +40

Good point. Other than Price, our starters are a roulette wheel. Yes, ERod gets one or two more outs per start than before, but he had his best year in 2018. 2019 is not even close. Yes, Sale has looked better than his putrid early season starts, but he is far away from his dominant self. Porcello is a total mess with a few gems sprinkled into all the chaos. Our 5th starter have somehow managed to have a winning record in their starts, but they have been a joke. Updated after yesterday's game: Updated tally after 82 games: By Wins and Losses Responsibility Game by Game: Starters 17-23 (-6) Relievers 27-16 (+11) Alternative Pitcher Scoring System: + 2 for any SP'er or Pen game where their ERA is 3.00 or less for 5 or more innings, 2.00 for 4 or less innings, 1.00 for 3 or less innings or 0.00 for 2 or less innings +1 for any SP'er or Pen game where their ERA is 3.00 or less for 4.2 or less innings. 0 for any game where their ERA is between 3.01 and 4.50. -1 for any game where their ERA is between 4.51 and 6.00. -2 for any game over 6.01 1. L 12-4 Sale 7/3- Pen 4/5 (S-2/R -2) 2. W 7-6 Eovaldi 6/5- Pen 0/4 (S-2/R+2) 3. L 6-5 ERod 5/4.1- Pen 0/3.2 (S-2/R+2) 4. L 10-8 Porcello 4/2.2- Pen 1/5.1 (S-2/R+2) 5. L 6-0 Price 4/6- Pen 2/2 (S-2/R-2) 6. L 1-0 Sale 1/6- Pen 0/2 (S+2/R+2) 7. W 6-3 Eovaldi 3/5- Pen 0/4 (S-1/R+2) 8. L 7-3 ERod 6/3.2- Pen 1/4.1 (S-2/R +2) 9. L 15-8 Porcello 7/4.2- Pen 8/3.1 (S-2/R-2) 10. W 5-4 Price 4/6- Pen 1/3 (S-1/R+1) Sub Total: SP -14/ RP +7 11. W 1-0 Velaz 0/3- Pen 0/6 (S+2/R+2) 12. L 7-5 Sale 5/4- Pen 2/5 (S-2/R+2) 13. W 7-6 Eovaldi 5/5- Pen 1/4 (S-2/R+2) 14. W 6-4 ERod 2/6.2- Pen 2/2.1 (S+2/-2) 15. L 9-5 Porcello 3/4- Pen 4/5 (S-2/R-2) 16. W 4-0 Price 0/7- Pen 0/2 (S+2/R+2) 17. L 8-1 Velaz 1/3- Pen 7/6 (S+1*/R-2) 18. L 8-0 Sale 4/5- Pen 4/3 (S-2/R-2) 19. L 5-3 Eovaldi 0/6- Pen 4/2 (S+2/R-2) 20. W 6-4 ERod 3/5.1- Pen 0/3.2 (S-1/R+2) Sub Total: SP +0/ RP +0 21. W 6-5 Porcello 2/5.2- Pen 3/3.1 (S+0/R-2) 22. W 4-3 Price 2/5- Pen 1/6 (S+2/R+2) 23. L 7-4 Sale 2/5- Pen 5/4 (S+2/R-2) 24. L 4-2 Velaz 3/3.1- Pen 1/5.9 (S-2/R+2) 25. W 11-4 ERod 1/6- Pen 3/3 (S+2/R-2) 26. W 7-2 Porcello 3/6- Pen 0/3 (S+0/R+2) 27. L 2-1 Price 2/6- Pen 0/3 (S+2/S+2) 28. L 5-2 Sale 2/7(2 unearned)- Pen 1/2 (S+2/R+0) 29. W 9-4 ERod 4/4.2- Pen 0/4.1 (S-2/R+2) 30. W 5-1 Porcello 0/8- Pen 1/1 (S+2/R-2) Sub Total: SP +8/ RP +2 31. W 7-3 Velaz 1/2- Pen 2/7 (S-2/R+2) 32. L 6-4 Price 3/6- Pen 2/2.1 (1 unearned) (S+0/R-2) 33. W 6-1 Sale 0/6- Pen 1/3 (S+2/R+1) 34. W 15-2 ERod 1/6- Pen 1/3 (S+2/R+1) 35. W 9-2 Porcello 2/6- Pen 0/3(S+2/R+2) 36. L 4-1 Smith 4/3.1- Pen 0/4.2 (S-2/R+2) 37. W 8-5 Velaz 2/3- Pen 3/7 (S-2/R+0) 38. W 2-1 Sale 1/8- Pen 0/4 (S+2/R+2) 39. W 14-1 ERod 0/7- Pen 1/2 (S+2/R+0) 40. W 9-5 Porcello 4/6.2- Pen 1/2.2 (S-1/R+0) Sub Total: SP+7/RP +8 41. W 11-2 Velz 2/5- Pen 0/4 (S+2/R+2) 42. L 5-4 Sale 2/7- Pen 3/4 (S+2/R-2) 43. W 6-5 ERod 5/6- Pen 0/4 (S-2/R+2) 44. L 3-1 Porcello 2/7 - Pen 0/2 (S+2/R+2) 45. L 7-3 Velaz 5/0.1 -Pen 2/8.2 (S-2/R+2) 46. W 4-3 Sale 3/5.1- Pen 0/3.2 (S+0/R+2) 47. W 12-2 Price 0/5 (2 unearned)- Pen 0/4 (S+2/R+2) 48. L 10-3 ERod 6/5- Pen 4/3 (S-2/R-2) 49. W 6-5 Porcello 1/6- Pen 4/7 (S+2/R+0) 50. W 8-2 Weber 1/6- Pen 1/3 (S+2/R+1) Sub Total: SP +6/ RP +9 51. L 4-3 Sale 2/6- Pen 0/2 (S+2/R+2) 52. L 4-3 Price 0/0.2- Pen 4/7.1 (S+0*/R+1) 53. W 4-1 ERod 1/6- Pen 0/3 (S+2/R+2) 54. W 12-5 Porcello 3/6.2 2 unearned- Pen 0/2.1 (S+1/R+2) 55. L 7-5 Price 0/6- Pen 7/3 (S+2/R-2) 56. L 14-9 Weber 7/4- Pen 7/5(S-2/R-2) 57. L 4-1 Sale 4/6- Pen 0/2 (S+0/R+2) 58. L 5-3 Porcello 5/4.2- Pen 0/3.1 (S-2/R+2) 59. W 8-5 Price 2/6.1- Pen 3/2.2 (S+2/R-2) 60: W8-3 KCR: ERod 2/5.2 2/ RP 1/3.1 1 (S+2/R+1) Sub Total: SP +7/ RP +6 61: W 8-0 KCR: Sale 0/9.0 (S+3**) 62: W 7-5 KCR: Weber 2/1.1- Pen: 3/7.2 IP 3 (S-2/R+1) 63: L 5-1 TBR: Porcello 4/6 IP- Pen 1/3.0 (S+0/R+1) 64: L 9-2 TBR: Josh Smith 4/4.0 IP- Pen 4/5.0 IP (S-2/R-2) 65: W 5-1 TBR: Price 1/6.0 IP-Pen 0/3.0 (S+2/R+2) 66: L 6-1 TBR: ERod 4/5.2- Pen 2/4.1 (S-2/R+0) 67: L 4-3 TEX: Sale 0/7.0- Pen 3/4.0 (S+2/R-2) 68: L 9-5 TEX: DHerm 3/3- Pen 5/6.0 (S-2/R-2) 69: W 4-3 TEX: Porcello 2/6.2-Pen 0/2.1 (S+2/R+2) 70: W 7-6 TEX: Price 6/1.1- Pen 0/7.9 (S-2/R+3**) Sub Total: SP -1/ RP +3 71: W 13-2 BAL: ERod 1/7- Pen 1/2.0 (S+2/R+0) 72: W 7-2 BAL: Sale 2/6.0- Pen 0/2.0 (S+2/R+2) 73: W 8-6 BAL in 10: Johnson 1/3.0 IP- Pen 3/7.0 (S+1/R+1) 74: W 2-0 MN: Porcell 0/7- Pen 0/2.0 (S+2/R+2) 75: L 4-3 MN (17 inn): Price 1/5.0- Pen 3/11.1 (S+2/R+2) 76: W 9-4 MN: ERod 4/7- Pen 0/2.0 (S+0/R+2) 77. W 7-5 TOR: Sale 3/5.0- (1 unearned)/ Pen 1/5.0 (S+0/R+2) 78: L 8-7 TOR: Johnson 0/5.0- Pen 7/4.0 (S+2/R-3**) 79: L 6-1 TOR: Porcello 5/6.0- Pen 1/3.0 (S-2/R+1) 80: W6-5 CWS: ERod 5/6.0- Pen 0/3.0 (S-2/R+2) Sub Total: SP +7/ RP +11 81: W6-3 CWS: Price 2/6.0- Pen 0/3.0 (S+2/R+2) 82: L 8-7 CWS: Sale 5/6.0-Pen 3/3.0 (S-2/R-2) 83: L 17-13 NYY: Porcello 6/0.1- Pen 11/8.2 (S-2/R-2) 84: L 12-8 NYY: ERod 2/5.1-Pen 9/3.2 (S+2/R-2) 85: W 10-6 TOR: Price 2/6.0- Pen 4/3 (S+2/R-2) The pen has never been minus in any 10 game segment. The season totals after 79 games: SP +22 RP +40

No shame.

Must be WTF Cora.

...and as Max pointed out, some had close to or more ST'ing IP'd than last year. No matter what date you chose,other than Price, our starters are doing worse than 2018, worse than 2016-2018 combined and have been responsible for more Sox losses than the pen. It's not even close. That is not to say we don't need pen help. I still think a pen upgrade is our #1 priority this summer.

You've moved the goal posts from "have done near career norms" from May 1st to "will perform..."

You still don't get it. It's not your theory I disagree with. I actually agree the ST'ing rest was part of the reason for the slow start. I agree that our starters have done better after March & April, but they were so bad, that's not hard to do. It's your point of fact concerning our top starters pitching to their norm after their "rest period" I took issue with, and I stated that time after time. Yes, I added some distracters about how I had expected the rest to maybe help them do better than their norms once they settled in, but they have not. They are heading in the wrong direction, with the exception of Price.

.242 vs LHPs isn't cutting it. It's not much better than his .236 career BA vs lefties. For God's sake! JBJ is just .027 behind Beni after tonight's game! (.778 to .751)

Yes, and the latter makes his trade value high.

I thought I was pretty clear on my points after having to explain it several times from various angles. Sale is clearly not himself. To say he is near his "career norm" or as I prefer to look at his last 2-3 year "norm" is just plain wrong. He is struggling, inconsistent and is no where near what he was like before the injury last summer. Throw out March and April, and he is no where near a Cy Young contender. Price is doing better- no argument here. ERod going deeper into games has been a bright spot, but he's pitching significantly worse than last year. He's entering prime, so one should not compare his numbers now, in prime, to his career numbers as those numbers include early career struggles. Nobody expected him to pitch like he did early in his career. ERod's numbers after his 5th start: 4.40 ERA 1.37 WHIP 5.9 IP/GS The 4.40 ERA is higher than every season in his career, except 2016's 4.71. His career ERA is 4.23, which is close, but pretty far from his 2017-2018 combined 4.01 ERA. His WHIP from 2017-2018 was 1.27. 5.9 IP per GS does outweighs the 5.5 IP/GS over the last 2 years but not by enough to make him near "norm". Porcello is not even up for debate. Add to this the fact that all but Price are trending downwards over their last 3, 5 or 9 starts (any number you chose) only highlights the fact that 3 of our starters are not near any norm.

It's still a dare you chose based on what you think is right. I doubt most baseball people think it takes 5 starts to round into shape, but it's fine that you believe that. Even if it does, had Cora used the starters more in ST'ing would it still have take 5 starts or 4? I still think it is all arbitrary- yours and my chosen dates. Either way, our starters are not pitching to their norm after May 1st or May 11th, so no matter what date we chose, you were wrong. Only Price is doing better than "norm." My point was to counter your statement. I don't know why they are doing worse. I'd have thought the slight extra rest would help them be stronger at a time like this when we need them to go deeper and let up less runs. We are lucky they give us just one of those needs. This all started when the pen was being blamed for just about everything, and some of us pointed out that the starters were not helping and had actually been more responsible for losses than the pen. You said they have been pitching to their norms after the "rest period." I showed that is not the case. I'm not sure what more needs to be said.

Yanks lost- for what's that worth.

We have nobody better, but I'd bat him 9th until he shows some life. I'd think about playing Holt in LF vs lefties. If someone offered a nice return in trade, I'd do it- lower stock and all.

30 games does not approximate the "time delay," so I don't get why you pulled May first out of this air, other than it is a neat and clean date. You made the point that our starters have been at or near norm since May 1st and that May 1st held some sort of special meaning. Neither are true, and they've done even worse after May 11th. I've told you what my point is a number of times, so I'll try to dumb it down: Cora gave our starters a little extra rest in ST'ing with the idea that they would be fresher during the season and have less of a chance of burning out by September and October. I expected them to do as well or better than their 3 year norm as the season progressed. They have not. Since May 11th, 3 of the big 4 have done worse. Since May 1st, 1 has done slightly worse and 2 worse. I'm not sure what else needs explaining. Not only did the rest not help in April, it hasn't helped afterwards either. Maybe it will make up for the first half later this year, but 3 of our top 4 starters are NOT pitching to their norm after just about any date you want to pick. You were wrong.

I'm not usually one to go along with ideas like this, and even though we have no OF'er to take his place, I'm done with Beni.

There isn't even a button- metaphorically or otherwise.