moonslav59

Not many "young" starters are free agents. It takes too many years to get to free agency. To get very good young pitching, you have to trade for it. Problem: what GMs are looking to trade good young pitching? We couldn't even get one for Betts.

What's with the "Hang 'em"? Seriously.I don't get it.

Of course they will, even if COVID continues through 2021.

The Marlins ownership demanded the sell-offs. (The long time returning to respectability was not all on DD. They didn't even try to get back for many years.) The Tigers ownership demanded a win now philosophy. I have to think Henry knew what DD was going to do, when he hired him, so to me, it's not all on DD and besides, DD brought us the best 3 year stretch in 90+ years of Red Sox history. Focusing on just the bad aspects of his era is well within your rights, but did you enjoy those 3 years? 2018 was a super team- super record- super playoffs. I can totally sympathize with anyone who thinks the few years we're in the middle of suck, and they do. I can understand anyone thinking 2016 to 2018 does not outweigh the 2019-2021, but to me it was, and I can't see how anyone can feel so strongly that the balance is so out of whack as to never even mention the good side of DD's era. (I also feel the same about those who so strongly bash the Ben era.)

As I just stated, I think DD and Henry felt "the window would last 5-6 years and would be worth the sell-off. (2016 to 2020 or 2021) Had we done well in 2019 and 2020, maybe Betts stays, but if a re-set was always going to be in the pans, they had to know the good dimes would end, at some point, and a rebuild or some sort would have to happen- most likely without DD at the helm.

I think both DD and Henry felt the window created by DD's farm sell off would last to 2020 and maybe 2021, but I do think he knew the cliff was going to happen. 2019 was a shocker. The "end" came too soon.

Certainly, his upside potential looks much higher than any of us thought it would be before those 3 starts with the Sox, this year. I'm very optimistic, but we have to remember, it was only 17 IP.

My guess is it's more like 140-160 IP, and they may try to extend his team control years by sending him to AAA for the needed time frame. With Sale starting the season on the IL- likely the 60 day IL, I could see Houck starting the season in the rotation with a pretty strict pitch count, then spending the middle of the season in AAA on a vert low pitch count regime before being called back up, especially if we are in the playoff hunt, later in the season.

The worst possible outcome for DD would have been to spend all that capital- both financial & in young prospects trades- and not get a ring. Sure, it looked and still looks like it was overkill, but nothing is a sure bet in baseball. What he did really hurt our long term outlook, but those 3 seasons were incredibly exciting and that 2018 team will go down as one of the best teams of all time. The window of success should really have been 4-5 years, but the Gods of 2019 were not kind to us. (Not that I'm complaining- 4 rings in 15 years was heavenly.) Had the 2018 ring been our first in 80+ years, I doubt anyone would be complaining- not that this makes everything alright. Also, hardly anybody criticizes Henry, and for good reason, but you have to know he hired DD to do what he did. He could have told him, at anytime, "enough is enough- be happy with what we have and roll the dice." Going overboard was the accepted plan by the team. Mortgaging the future was part of the plan.

Truth.

Dave was "desperate" to win in Detroit- as the owner basically told him to be. I don't like the nickname, but it kinda fit. Sure, Ben had less power given to him than DD, but I see "coffee boy" and being more disparaging and unfitting, but that's just my opinion. Besides, it's not the worst thing said about Ben, either. Maybe, the most juvenile, but Ben was bashed harshly during and after his time with the Sox, and it lasted years afterwards. If Bloom is able to turn things around, quickly, my guess is the DD bashing will nearly go away. IMO, Ben was bashed more 2-3 years after he left than DD was within one year of leaving. I may be wrong, but that's my perception. Like I said, though, 3 last place finishes compared to DD's 3 years of great teams put out by DD looked at without the context what was left them when the took over and what they left the next guy helps explain why it is what is is.

I actually feel better about D Hern being a great pitcher than Houck, but that's not a put down on Houck. I know there are countless has been pitchers who "only had to improve their control" to be great but never did, but D Hern has near record-breaking K rates. He can be unhittable. True, the sample size is small (39 IP in MLB), but a 16.3 K/9 rate is astounding! Sadly, so is his 7.9 BB/9 rate. His 5.4 H/9 rate was encouraging, this year, but his BB rate actually went up from 2019. No ML pitcher has a higher K/9 rate and more IP'd than DHern has since 2019. The same can be said about his BB rate. (Actually, no pitcher in MLB history has had a K rate like DHern's after 39 IP.) BTW, DHern's 39 IP small sample size is over double Houck's 17 IP in MLB.

I think Larry called DD "desperate Dave" before we even signed him. I guess you could call that "juvenile," but it has kind of been his M.O.- win now at all costs. If that's the most juvenile thing DD bashers have said, IMO, it pales against "coffee boy" and some of the other extremely harsh criticisms leveled against Ben. Now, 3 last place finishes in 4 years is certainly reason enough to be critical and even hyper critical. DD's record was much better, as long as we ignore (or devalue) the state the team was left in after their departures. IMO, Ben left DD with a foundation or top young players and a long list of high-demand prospects that could and were used to build the greatest Sox team in history- the 2018 WS champions. DD left Bloom is a much worse situation, and that's putting it mildly. I'm thankful for the 2018 ring. I'm glad DD was our GM. His teams were exciting to watch beyond just the 2018 team, but we paid a hefty price for those 3-4 seasons of high competitiveness. To me, it was worth it. To others, it was overkill or much worse. Some will find it hard to let go of those feelings just as some seem to have a hard time letting go of their feelings towards Bloom some 5 years after he left. The fact that we sucked, last year and have little hope for 2020 makes the "letting go" harder. (2019 didn't help either.)

At that time, I felt those moves were a "halfway" attempt at trying to look just competitive enough to keep the fans in the loop. (Yes, I have been wrong many times before, and could be again on this position.) I don't see us as having as good a foundation as that 2013 team before those moves, and we will likely have to focus on signing 5-6 mid range (or even lower) players, depending on our spending allowance, this winter. I'm sure some of the signings will be stop-gap signings and not about 2022 and beyond, and I'm not against the idea. We do need someone to start some games for us in 2020, so had we signed Morton, I'd have been okay with the idea, but I'd rather we look at signing 2 year players[ that have higher upside in 2022. My guess is, we sign a bunch of one year deals, so my point may be moot. BTW, I really disliked the Dempster signing and felt the Vic signing was needed but a year too long. I loved the Napoli and Uehara deals. I disliked the Drew deal, since as you know, I was a big Iggy fan.

He wouldn't be "Pedey," if he went out meekly.

Thanks, oldtimer. We will be having a small gathering outside at our daughter's fiance's home. It's been our "bubble" for months, but even then, this is just the 4th time we have gotten together since March. We've done nothing else, in terms of group settings. Although it's hard for me to go a day without thinking of the Sox, today I will try. Have a great day with your brother and his wife.

Happy Thanksgiving!

I'm not seeing what you are seeing. I'm not asking you to dig up a post or two. There are probably a few, for sure. As for bashing GMs being playground stuff, it's been an American pastime since I can remember- not that it makes it right. Assigning blame to anything and everything is something that seems to be expanding and deepening. I can't say I haven't partaken in various assignings, myself. I'm not sure why going way back is any more juvenile or hateful than talking about just the present state of affairs. My main point was not so much about the choice of terminology but the fact that is was only assigned to the DD hate crowd, while many of the DD defenders seemd to part of the Ben-bashing crowd, but that was apparently not "juvenile"or "hateful." I, for one, and thankful for all the GMs we've had going back to Dan Duquette. I'm not saying their time was never up or that never felt a change of GM (or manager) was needed, but I have a net positive view of all the last 5or 6 Gms we've had, including Bloom. This doesn't mean I won't speak out against something I disagree with, but they all had my overall support.

I'd like to know some of the specific "juvenile Bashings" and how they differed from Ben bashings. When even Theo got bashed, it's obvious, it comes with the territory.

Then, you woke up. Was there coffee brewing?

I'm cautiously optimistic one or two of these guys will be better than decent- maybe more. I also like Seabold and Ward. Here's a list of the Sox prospects pitchers, their ranking by soxprospects.com, age and projected 2021 level: 3. Mata 21 AAA 7. Houck 24 MLB (AAA?) 8. Ward 23 AA (>AAA?) 9. Seabold 24 AAA (>MLB?) 10. A Ramirez 19 A 11. Song 23 N/A 12. Groome 22 A+ (>AA?) 18. C Murphy 22 A+ 22. Bello 21 A+ 23. J Wallace 22 A+ 24. Zeferjahn 22 A+ 26. Bazardo 25 AAA (>MLB?) 27. J Rodriguez 20 A 28. D Feltman 23 AAA 30. Chih-Jung Liu 21 A

Especially on this team. So far, everyone we've DFA'd have went unclaimed. I expect that to happen to Stock and the next few players we DFA, as well.

We can all breathe easier, now.

There's not much to talk about until some Sox signings start. Talking about past GMs and managers is a longstanding practice by many fans- probably more so with Sox fans. Sure, there's some bashing or "derogatory comments" that keep coming up. This most recent conversation included calling DD basher's comments "juvenile." I agree there have been more negative comments about DD recently, but IMO, I'd say there were way more Ben bashings going on within a year or two of his departure than with DD, but that's just my opinion and perception- not that it really matters. I may disagree on the idea that discussions about past GMs only serves one purpose, but it's a good thing we don't all see things the same way.

Me, too, and to be honest, he came out of nowhere, in terms of my radar. I never expected him to show what he has shown, so far. It's a small sample size, and he still has a lot to prove, but I'm super excited, too! I'm thinking "special one," as well.