moonslav59

I hope we can bury the hatchet and move on. I was out of line, a few times. I do think the analytics are going overboard, too, but I can't blame teams for using them to improve outcomes (like defensive shifts, knowing who can't handle 3rd time through line-ups, looking at one-to-one match ups between a pitcher and a batter, etc... To me, the old traditional style of the game seemed more pure and enjoyable to watch, but even back then, changes were always occurring. Hell, they even changed the mound height after 1968. The role of the pen and then the closer has been changing for 5 decades. Line-up strategies, bunting, stealing bases, ...

Yankees in the playoffs over the last decade: No World Series Entries 2 ALCS entries- lost both to HOU in '17 and '19 W-L records: 0-4 DET 1-4 BOS 5-9 HOU 2-3 TBR 4-0 MN 1-0 OAK 5-2 CLE 3-2 BAL

Forget about records and 9 game winning streaks. Think about the team we had in April, May and June (plus maybe the team that won 4 of the first 5 of July). Are we better now, of was that a better team? A lot of players have been added and taken away. Some roles have changed for the ones who stayed. Some stats looked great in April and May, but what team is better? I'd prefer you go with your gut feeling, but here are some stats to remind you who we were back then... OPS by order of most PAs before the All Star Break: .913 Devers (369 PAs) .926 JD (367) .930 Bogey (361) .771 Verdugo (356) .780 Renfroe (312) .747 Kike (316) .659 Vaz (299) .673 Dalbec (258) .583 Marwin (246) .762 Arroyo (163) .522 Santana (104) .501 Cordero (102) .658 Plawecki (71) Pitchers by IP 3.66 Eovaldi 103 4.30 Pivetta 96 4.91 Richards 92 5.52 ERod 90 4.04 Perez 85 1.44 Whitlock 43 2.61 Barnes 38 6.03 Andriese 37 2.68 Ottavino 37 2.45 Sawamura 37 3.86 Taylor 30 2.70 DHern 30 4.24 Valdez 23 3.21 Workman 14 6.59 Brice 14 3.38 Rios 11 4.35 Houck 10 After the break... .862 Devers 295 .832 Kike 269 .787 JD 267 .858 Renfroe 260 .787 Verdugo 248 .761 Bogey 242 .660 Vaz 199 .955 Dalbec .955 .957 Schwarber 168 .576 Duran 112 .792 Plawecki 102 .622 Arauz 65 .915 Iggy 64 .843 Shaw 48 Pitchers.... 3.87 Eovaldi 79 3.71 ERod 68 3.38 Houck 59 4.91 Pivetta 59 4.80 Richards 45 3.16 Sale 43 2.73 Whitlock 30 3.60 Robles 25 6.48 Ottavino 25 2.60 Taylor 17 4.86 Davis 17 6.48 Barnes 17 8.10 Valdez 17 4.41 Sawamura 16 3.95 Rios 14 1.50 Brasier 12 5.40 DHern 10

That should be put on billboards all over NYC!

Thank you for a thoughtful reply. I'm curious about why you seemed to change your mind on bringing Cora back, next season. You seemed to hint you "were not alone" in not wanting him to return. Was it the playoff run? So, I wasn't all that wrong about you thinking starters are "babied"- not just Sale. Maybe "babied" is too strong a word, but I think you said something like "take the kid gloves off" with Sale, which is sort of a separate issue than pulling most starters way earlier than the old days. It seemed, to me, like you often took the position to leave starters in longer, and I did find one quote from you on Houck, so I don't tink my jumping to the conclusion that you think starters are coddled, babied or some other lesser harsh word was all that far off from your stated position above. I do make inferences about posters positions that are not always correct. I shouldn't do that, and I get upset, sometimes, when people do it to me, so I should be more understanding and attentive to myself doing that. It took me a long time to even start paying attention to who said what on this site. I used to just respond to posts and not really pay much attention to the poster and what his positions had been up to that post. I came from another site many years ago, and kinda ignored the personalities for a long time. I know I come off sounding authoritative and righteous, but I don't mean to be that way. I often don't take the time to say, "In my opinion..." or "I think..." but I guess I assume everybody know what anybody says is just their opinion. I also use stats and data to support my positions, knowing full well other stats and data are out there that refute my claims, but somehow, I think people think that my attaching stats makes it sound like I am stating a fact that cannot be debated. For example, I did not intend my statement about Houck having some of the best starter stats on the Sox to mean I felt he was the best starter we had, or that he never had a bad start. I know you weren't implying he was bad, and to some extent almost all pitchers are "inconsistent," at times, but I almost always view players in comparative terms. Maybe I'm wrong for that, and I expect others to see that "my way." I just think singling out Houck as being inconsistent was saying something bad about him, hence my use of the term "bad-mouthing." To me, he's been one of our most consistent starters, although his sample size is smaller than most. He's never had a game where he let up more than 3 runs. Granted, he's let up 3 in 3.2 IP, once, so I'm not saying he's had 13 good starts, but he's been pretty consistent- compared to others. I got into a similar argument with iortiz about Barnes being a better than average RP'er before 2021. He showed his WAR numbers and called him something I disagreed with, and he did not agree with my position that when you compared his numbers from 2017-2020 to other RP'ers in that time frame he was a top 25% reliever in many categories and top 50% in just about every category- so to me, that showed he was "clearly" above average. I went on and on- as did he, when it was clear we just saw things differently. I should have just let it go, as I should with some of the crap we beef about.

Back to 2022... Answer these questions, if you dare: 1) If you could trade JD and pay $3M and then sign Schwarber for $16M (basically breaking even with JD's contract), would you do it? 2) Would you offer ERod an $18.6M QO? 3) If you offered Bogey a fair extension, and he said no, do you look into trading him? 4) Do you bring back Iggy at $6M/2? 5) Do you bring back Robles at $5M/2? 6) Do you try to sign a top starter or RP'er, assuming you can only get one? 7) Do you trust Dalbec to be our FT 1Bman, at least until Casas is ready? 8) Do you think about moving Bogey (3B/2B) or Devers(1B/OF/DH) to another position? My answers: 1) yes 2) yes 3) yes 4) yes 5) yes 6) SP 7) yes (fingers crossed- knowing picking up a cheap 1B is usually easy)) 8) no, not this winter

Okay, I went and looked... It didn't take me long to find one exaample. You didn't say "babied," but you made it clear you thought Cora yanked him too early more than once... No lies. Just maybe a little inference, which looks correct, even now. I take back that apology. 09-27-2021, 03:01 PM#300 Old Red Old Red is online now Major Leaguer Join Date Aug 2021 Posts 368 Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post If the numbers show a pitcher gets crushed the third time through a line-up are you guys saying keep the guy in out of some sort of macho act or tradition- keeping philosophy? I can just imagine the game threads after Cora leaves a starter in to get drilled. (You replied) I wouldn’t take a pitcher out like Cora has with Houck more than once even though he was pitching good just, because I’m afraid of what might happen. Nonsense to me.

I admit I have said things like you hate Cora, but that's not "putting words in your mouth." I never said you made that statement. I made an inference off your constant bashing and saying things like we should never have hired him back and you weren't the "only one" who would not bring him back next year. "Hate" is a harsh word, and I should not have said that. I have admitted I was wrong in saying that, but I do still think you don't like him. Do you want him back, next year? Do you like him as a manager? Next issue, "babying starters." Again, I could be wrong, but it seems like you have been saying you don't like the direction baseball is going when yanking starters so early. I thought you made some statement like that, at some point. Maybe I'm wrong. maybe I confused you with someone else. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sorry, but can you clear something up? Do you think starters being pulled after 2 times through the line-up is a good direction for baseball? Is it really a crazy thing to equate pulling starters early with "babying," a term you used for Sale? Do you think too many starters in MLB are babied?

You asked if I thought Houck was the best starter based on stats. I answered as clearly as possible, so you would not take it the wrong way, and whaat do you do? You go all convoluted, again. I never said you said I said Houck was the best starter. I just answered your question. Stop overanalyzing everything and making things up. I did not further inject anything about you saying other starters were babied. That's a lie. I actually said, I'm not going to go look for it, and if I am wrong, "shoot me." If anything, that sounds like I'm backing away and not furtherin it along. I didn't double down on that position, yet you say I "once again inject things that are not there." How did I do that? This is getting comical. You can misinterpret that statement all you want.

Very seldom anymore.

Welcome. Being underdogs can help lessen the pressure and also give the team the attitude that they have something to prove and someone to prove wrong.

I said he had the best starter stats in areas that did not involve innings. I never said he was "the best starter." IMO, Eovaldi was and still is our best starter. If I had to rank them, he might be 3rd behind Nate and Sale. If I went by who I want starting nexy, he's maybe second behind Nate or third behind nate and Pivetta, but probably second. I don't want to overanalyze, though. I'm not looking up where you said Houck was babied. If I got that one wrong, too, shoot me. You've been ranting about babying starters for a while. I'm not understanding why you can't own up to your own opinions, and why you think people voicing their opinions are acting like their opinions are facts. If I disagree with someone, I let them know. You may think I'm judging, but I don't see it that way.

So, now looking at starter wins is not overanalyzing, but showing ERA, WHIP and OPS Against only as a response to you saying "stats anybody." You can keep bashing me for implying "hate" when it was not called for. Apparently you like hearing yourself saying it over and over, but I don't want to be accused of making assumptions or overanalyzing anything you say. You bad- mouthed Houck. Bad mouthing is a word that can be interpreted differently, but to me calling someone inconsistent when they had the best starter numbers on the team is not good. It is bad.

Even starting pitchers that go 4-5 innings are very important. We'll need 5-6 of them. We have 2 and a bunch of maybes.

And Whitlock

Nice job! You actually called the opinion stupid- not the person. First steps are always the hardest. There is hope, yet.

We won a ring every time due to solid and at least 2 deep starting pitching. DD brought us Sale, Price and Porcello. Just because we squeaked into the playoffs by one game, advanced in a wild card game and out-pitched the Rays in 3 of 4 games, does not make SP'ers less valuable. We need at least one solid SP'er (a #2 at worst), and I'm counting on Eovaldi and Sale to be solid, next year. One or both may not be.

I apologized for saying all your Cora bashing meant the same as hating, but you can't let go. I can keep apologizing, but it won't help. If having the best stats of any Sox starter is "inconsistent", then yes, that is bashing, IMO. Not overanalyzing, not exaggerating and not lying. It's an opinion, and I stand by my opinion- to "balance you out"- LOL. You did criticize me for slotting Houck as next year's closer. That's another example of you not thinking Houck is as good as most do. Since "mistakes" by managers in MLB are highly subjective, a statement like the one I made about Cora is an opinion not a fact. It's not overanalyzing, so you can drop that nonsense. "People like you" -nice one.

I agree, Bloom will bring in 75,000 Robles, Davis, Workman, Rios, Feliz, Gonsalves and Brice types, again, this year, but you know, we just barely made the playoffs and losing one or two games as we trial-and-error it for months might nnot work out so well in 2022. We used 33 pitchers in relief, this year and 37 overall. That's a stunning number, especially when you figure 29 of them got 3 or more IP. 21 pitchers got 12+ IP. 17 got 24+ One important priority of Bloom, last summer and winter was to build 40 man roster and beyond depth. While he must still look to improve and build up that area, it is no longer such a high priority, IMO. We will also be adding 5-6 Rule 5 protectess to the 40 man, so that will lessen his need to add scrubs in hopes a few stick. We should have about the same winter spending budget, but only 3-4 slots to fill instead of 10: CF/2B Kike RF Renfroe SP Richards SP Perez P Whitlock RP Ottavino RP Sawamura RP Andriese UT Marwin UT Santana

I think a trade for a starter makes a lot of sense. Lower salary. I do think Scherzer is on the table, because he is 37. The term length shorter. I hate spending on RP'ers- too hit and miss. I also hate signing 4/5 starters like Perez and Richards, last winter, but I could make a long list of failed tries. Only a very few work out. IMO, we only have 3-4 holes to fill not 10, like last winter, so we can afford to go large for at least one slot. I'd rather that be a starter than a closer (Iglesias?) Trading for one and signing another or bringing back ERod would set us up nicely.

The one year risk is a big plus for the Sox and allows ERod a chance to reset his value. Win-win. If he says no, we get a comp pick and have his $18.6M to spend on another pitcher.

They aren't even letting Big Nate see the third timers.

Nick, I never counted them out. I think Houck would be a very good closer, and we have an opening there. I have said Whitlock projects better as a SP'er and I offered two scenarios: one with Houck and Whitlock in the pen and one with Whitlock as a starter. Why are you misrepresenting my position? If it were up to me, and I had $40M to spend, I'd spend it on SP'ing- either $30M on someone like Scherzer + $10M on a #4 starter type, and begin the season with Houck and Whitlock in the pen, but in no way am I locked into that idea. I might try to spend $20M + $20M on 2 solid SP'ers. We might end up with $25M on a SP'er, $10M on a 4th starter and $5M on a RP'er. Who knows? I cn certainly see the value of starting Houck and Whitlock, next year, but then we have a mess of pen openings, including closer, and signing RP'ers is so hit or miss, I'm not liking that idea. Remember, Bloom signed Richards, Perez, Andriese and Sawamura with mid-ranged deals. Would you say he did well, there? Do you want him doing that again, but with just RP'ers?

Hence the winter need for rotation help. With just about all starters being yanked after the second time through a line-up having tow long men like Houck and Whitlock is an ideal situation. I know starters cost more than RP'er but I think there is a better risk to reward chance with signing solid starters over RP'ers.

I'd put Whitlock, Renfroe, Iggy, Shaw, Robles and Davis all above Sawamura as good Bloom additions since 2020's season end. Pivetta and Arroyo stand out among those acquired during 2020.