moonslav59

Indeed, and they have 9 games left vs DET, KCR and PIT.

Plus Houck and Whitlock had injury issues and never pitched 150+ innings, either. Paxton was the only guy I felt could start 32 games and have 180 IP, but he was the 5th starter. Kluber was similar to Sale and Paxton. 8-9 SP'ers with only one who rated to go 30/180. Yup.

I agree, but maybe the pendulum is swinging to the good. In the last few years we've seen a major uptick in decent pitchers called up: Bello Houck Whitlock Crawford Winckowski Before it was Brian Johnson, Hnery Owens, Ranaudo and Shawryn types.

Do you think it's 16th or somewhere between the highest ranking and 16th? If you believe it is likely 10th to 12th, it's still a big improvement. If you think it is likely 3rd to 9th, Bloom has done a great job rebuilding the farm under enormously changed environments which penalize teams like the Sox. Of course, all prospects are "suspects" to some degree, but on paper, he seems to have done a pretty good job, at minimum. We can start to judge the young players on the team that he had added, so far (maybe some are no longer all that young anymore,) but I think adding the context that most prospects, especially HS players drafted years ago, take 4-6 years to mature. With that in mind, this list does not look bad to me: Verdugo Pivetta Whitlock Schreiber Winckowski Refsnyder Wong Urias McGuire EValdez Reyes Abreu Current Bloom ranked prospects: 1. Mayer 2. Anthony 3. Bleis 5. Teel 6. Yorke 9. Zanetello 10. Romero 11. Drohan 14. Joh Garcia 15. Cespedes (moving up) 16. Meidroth 18. Hickey 19. Jordan + G Gambrell & Monegro (moving up), DHam, E R-C, Anderson, Alcantara, I & C Coffey and several more promising prospects farther away, right now. Maybe, I'm wearing pink glasses, but there are many "experts" who support the idea that are farm is much stronger. You seem to listen to experts who said the Yoshida signing was a gross overpay, or the Betts trade was an "F Grade" by everyone, but for some reason want to distrust them on this one- or believe the one service that ranks us the lowest. BTW, the MLB site's ranking service has never been held up in high regard.

I said I "think" he will again. I've also repeatedly said "How soon is now?" We went from the Sale and Bogey extensions in spring of 2019 (both less than 6 years guaranteed) to the spring of 2022 with no major contracts, at all. That's 3 long years, which was unprecedented in JH's tenure. Certainly a big sign "this is not the same JH," but then we've had 3 major contracts given out in less than 2 years, although one kicks in next year. Story for 6 years- the first 6 or more year deal since Price. Yoshida for 5 years. Devers for 10 years at nearly 50% more money than Price's $210M/7 deal. I think this is evidence enough to think he is starting to spend more and may "go for it," again. To me, I might not call it a "lifetime pass," but if he remains our owner until the day I die, and we never win another ring or even seriously contend again, I will die happy he was our owner. I went over 30 years thinking I'd never see one ring. I got to the point, where I told people I'd take 10 last place finishes for just one ring, so that's the perspective I come from. I don't expect otehrs to s hae my perspective, and to each his own, but I am still thrilled he has been our owner. I'd rather have him than Steve Cohen or the old Steinbrenner. I'm not going to predict "this is the year" JH decides to spend, again. I thought maybe last winter would/could be it. I think he waits until a window is set, then pounces, and maybe he hasn't thought that window has been set since pre-2018, but I still think that is his underlying philosophy on spending. He did not want to spend like Cohen to fill 5-6 slots to make us a top contender. Does he feel like we are 2-3 big slot fills away from a ring in 2024? IDK. Maybe. Maybe he thinks the window starts in 2025. Maybe he stopped thinking about windows and you are right, he just wants to keep our spending between 12th and 18th and put together semi-contending teams until it's right to sell the team for an ungodly profit. I don't know what his future plans are, and maybe wishful thinking is clouding my judgement, but I do have some evidence to show the upswing in spending may be at hand. The Devers extension kicks in in '24. He's in his peak prime, now. If ever there was a time for a "window" and a splurge in spending, it would be in 2024 or 2025. With Jansen and Martine udner contract for just one more year, I'm guessing it will be 2024. Young players like Casas, Duran, Wong, Urias, Rafaela, Abreu, Bello, Crawford and others looking to maybe get even better, the foundation looks good enough to me to think we are 2-3 big additions away from being a top contender. I admit I am often overly optimistic, but I do try hard to stay realistic. I respect your position, and you have evidence to back your position up, too- like the fact that we are falling in the spending rankings and have been for an unprecedented 4-5 years in a row.

You mean not offering more to make deals happen as "backing away?" I heard we kicked the tires on Verlander, so certainly there was interest in doing something very bold. Settling on just Urias and no pitching at all, does seem like a huge letdown to an ownership group that must have been discussing Verlander and his contract costs. Maybe Bloom's timidity will be his downfall. I always thought he was mostly just following the priorities and guidelines set by those above him, namely build up the damn farm and foundation of young major leaguers on the 26. I think has done both of those to some extent. Maybe not enough, but I do think our young core looks pretty good, right now with a steady flow of incoming prospects looking all set.

Perhaps the two most important thing an owner does to insure his team's success is to spend a lot and choose the right GMs and core decision making team. JH has spent a to of money and has shown he has been willing to go above and beyond when it looks like one more piece is needed. There has been a long lull, now, but I don't think this is the "new JH." I think every GM he and this leadership group has hired have been excellent choices for the needs of the team at the times of the hirings. (Yes, even choosing Bloom as a rebuild GM.) I am far far away from calling for an ownership change, and not just out of fear of who might buy the team and what their outlook might be. I do think the team we have now is improving- even if way too slowly for most of us to tolerate.

The rebuilding started in 2019. Selling at this past deadline, or the one before would have just been part of a process that began long before then. BTW, your pessimism was well-founded.

Without knowing who would buy the team from JH and what they would do on spending, I'd say, "Be careful what you wish for." I happen to think JH spends in cycles and will, again, but this has been a long stretch and we have reached a spending ranking lower than we've seen in decades and decades. I'm concerned, too. Honestly, though, I'd like you and others to answer this: If you had to guess who is responsible for not spending right up to the tax line to improve our chances in 2023, who would you say it is? Bloom? JH and the leadership group? I just can't imagine a GM being given $6-10M or whatever it is to spend and choosing not to use it. Am I in the minority on this?

I'm not sure I'd use the word "excellent," as the Yanks are sucking, too.

Lambasted, yes, but I am still very far away from hoping we have an ownership change Very much further away than wanting a manager and or GM change, too..

Eflin might have been enough, alone (instead of Kluber) to make us still be in his race, as we speak. Getting Eflin and Wacha, instead of Kluber might have even been doable while keeping us under the tax line. (Non tendering Brasier could have made that a surety, assuming Eflin would have taken more money to come here.)

You have been spot on, all morning, and I don't disagree, here, but I do think the budget, especially if Bloom was told to stay $6-10M under the tax line, played a major role is what happened. We needed to build up the pen, badly. Nobody disputes that. One could argue, we could have used one more Chris Martin, but I think Bloom did a fine job maximizing his return on investments made to the pen. Not signing Martin or Jansen, so we could add another SP'er would not have been a good choice. We needed to replace some offense and fill the SS position, while also starring down the fact that our OF was one of the worst in MLB, last year and in my 50 years of being a Sox fan. He had to spend there. One could argue, he should have spent more on JT and Duvall. so we'd have them for more than just one year. It was a huge but winning roll of the dice to not spend on catching. (I recall some posters wanting us to go big an a FA catcher.) He spent pretty big on the OF with Yoshida and Duvall, and it could easily and rightfully be argued that the money spent on Yoshida (and Kike from the summer extension) to be spent on pitching. That looks to be on Bloom, but there was talk that the Sox system had been super high on Yoshida for years, so maybe signing him was more of a group choice than Bloom insisting on it. Still, he's the the guy making the choices, so that has to be a valid criticism. Bloom did not spend much on 1B/DH. The JT signing was masterful, except in length. The dice roll on Casas worked, too. The dice roll on Kike & Co. at SS was perhaps almost as big a blunder as neglecting the rotation. The fact is, he spent on the pen, the OF, DH/1B and was mostly a success in those areas, as a whole. Robbing Peter to pay Paul was something most of us felt and still feel he should have done, and that's on him. I'm not arguing Bloom having $6-10M more would have solved the rotation problem, but it could have helped. (Wacha cost less. Eflin or Nate over Kluber would fit, and so on...) Bloom needed to do more for the rotation than he did, There is no sugar coating that. The 8-9 guys we had looked okay, but okay rotations rarely reach glory.

.Nobody from the Sox top brass led me to have some hope for Mata, Walter and Murphy. Yes, I was always worried about Mata's health and the idea that the pen was likely a better spot for him, but he did have a sub .600 OPS Against, last season. Murphy fell apart, in the second half of 2022, but he had a great first half. I think he led the team in OPS Against until June or July. He still ended up at .687 as he led the whole farm in IP. Walter had some nice numbers, too. He had a .585 OPS Against and 75 Ks to just 7 BBs in 58 IP. I'm not sure why guys like Houck and Bello carry over their AAA numbers or even do better in the bigs, but so many promising pitchers, by the numbers, suck when called up by the Sox. It's not like none of these three had s***** stuff in the minors. One big point is that we ended up having to count on our 9-10-11-12 guys more than most teams end up having to do. We knew we had some injuries and injury prone pitchers, but I can't really blame anyone for not predicting we'd have all those missed starts by Whitlock, Houck, Saale, Paxton, and even Bello missed a couple, early on. Pivetta was demoted, as was Kluber, but then Kluber went on the IL. 8-9 pitchers is probably what most good teams plan on, and I'm not sure many other teams have significant;y better 10's, 11's and 12's than ours were believed to be back in March. To me, our rotation problem has been- choosing quantity over quality and durability/dependability. Until we build up the rotation from the top and stop trying to improve our #4 and 5's, we won't win, again. Bello would be a great #3 and okay as our Number 2. Houck would be a great #5 and okay as a #4. Pivetta would be better used as our #6, but would be okay as our #5. Same with Crawford. These two would be very nice 6's and 7's. We need two solid and dependable SP'ers, this winter. Even adding one ace who gives us 33 starts, alone would not be enough. Two solid #'s might be enough, but we need 2 not 1. 3 would be even nicer, but that is a pipedream, as probably even 2 is.

I’m not so sure it was Bloom who made the choice not to offer Eflin more money, but your point is well-taken. We needed minimum 2 guys from a list like Nate, Eflin, Wacha and maybe Lugo. Kluber as a third guy might have made sense, at the time- even as the second guy would have been understandable. I just can’t bring myself to believe it was Bloom’s choice to not leave a bunch of cash under the tax line on the table, and no, it’s not out of some sort of Bloom worship some here think I do. Yes, Bllom can rightfully be blamed for spending on Kluber, Mondesi, Brasier, Kike and Barnes, instead of______. Have at it. I agree.

Well said and in less words than I’d have been able to use!

Like I think it was you who said, a while ago, no Sox pitcher has been overtaxed with innings pitched, so who is at fault for the pitching collapse, if blaming someone is the task at hand? I agree on it not being Cora.

This year or next?

Not unfair at all, although the Raffy one hadn’t even started. I have no issues with Raffy’s money if he plays 1B, either. Certainly all 3 look bad or questionable, right now. I’ve never had issues with criticising Bloom on things he is responsible or largely responsible for. Have at it, please.

I still think he’s best in LF but better than Teoscar in RF.

I don’t think they looked to be bad extended depth. None were thought of as our number 6 or 7 or even 8 or 9, if you thought Wink could have been starter depth in March. We knew Paxton and Sale would miss time, and I remember saying that counting on both to combine for 32 starts was pushing it, but to me we had more quantity than quality, but some potential in 8-9, then the three you listed. Sale Paxton Kluber Houck Whitlock Bello Paxton Crawford Winckowski Mata, Walter and Murphy were 10, 11 and12th, until the choice was made never to start Wink, so maybe 9-10-11th. I still don’t think, at the time, that was a bad position to hold.

I disagree, and the idea is Casas or Duran would do the trick if packaged with 1-2 second tier guys like Hickey, Yorke, Romero or maybe Walter + Murphy counted as 1. I don’t think some recent deals gave anymore. I suppose a Casas and Duran package would gain a lot of interest but that’s a lot of potential future leaving us.

Not many managers want to get another job with another team, and although many here think Cora sucks, he’d have several teams wanting him, if he was fired. I hope we keep him, but this team is really reeling and lost.

Red means counted on to be solid plus. How can you view Rizzo as being average compared to all 1Bmen? Some pen guys could be red. You mention the chances of a vet or young guy stepping up to red, but the same chance exists that a red guy gets hurt or declined below red. IMO, you might have 4 red guys in your line up, yet you say you think you only need to add just two bats. Please explain.

Do we have any MLB ready prospects in AAA or AA that we might want to give a look at the ML level? We could DFA some FAs to be to make room of the 40 and 27. On 40: Dalbec Murphy Robertson Weiss Not on 40 (Rule 5 anyway?): S Scott G Gambrell J Hagenman Wikelman DFA guys we will likely non tender, anyway? Garza Llovera Barraclough Jacques FAs? Paxton Duvall