Maxbialystock

I would argue the other side. Two straight nights of heavy bullpen did no damage to them--and we won the first game because of the bullpen and lost the second because of the starter. Tonight they are coming off a rest day and should be ready. I'm pretty sure none of our guys are overworked.

Very sensible. But we already know that stuff can happen in any game to cause the starter to leave early, only one of which is ineffectiveness. That's why some managers--like Farrell and Francona--normally use the "7-run rule" to gauge when to pull a starter. It seems a lot, but it saves the bullpen. But in this instance, it wasn't 7, but 10 runs. In this instance Cora had 8 relievers, not the usual 7, and 2 of them are experienced long relievers who in fact started earlier in the season. In this instance the game was winnable because, before those 4 runs in the 4th inning, the score was 6-5 Seattle. In this instance leaving Wright in did not save anything. The bullpen still had to pitch 5.2 innings. In this instance, they also had to pitch 5 innings the next night when ERod was pulled. But in this instance there was an off day yesterday which helped the bullpen recover and which Cora knew about. I'm very pro-Cora and have been all season long and defended him incessantly. But for me there are too many reasons why Wright should have been pulled sooner.

Exactly. I would also agree that we are the better team by a fair margin, but the point is that a one game wild card playoff can go either way. By adding that 5th team to the playoffs in each league, MLB now has 1/3 of their 30 teams making it to the POSTSEASON which presumably increases fan interest and attendance in August and September. To make it work, however, they have greatly elevated the importance of winning a division--even a weak division--and not having to play a single game playoff. To me 4 teams (1 wild card) in each league made more sense.

Wright was fantastic this season and in 3 starts--1 run in 20.2 innings--before this one. No other Sox starter has come close to that in three consecutive starts. So moonslav was right to insist this guy can help. He still can if that knuckler comes back because it is better than any pitch Sale or Price or ERod or Porcello has. It makes Wright our ace when it is working because it allows Wright to have an incredibly low ERA and to pitch a lot of innings in every start. The problem with the knuckle ball, however, is that it is very hittable when it doesn't jump. Up until last Friday, that only happened infrequently to Wright's knuckler. The bigger risk was that it wouldn't be a strike or that Vazquez couldn't catch it, but those risk proved to be minor. Back to that 1 run in the previous 20.2 innings Wright had pitched. That disastrous 1st inning with 4 runs and 2 dingers was a huge red flag that something was very wrong with the erstwhile reliable knuckler. Two more runs in the 2d inning were only confirmatory. Somehow Wright got thru the 3d clean, but Cora should have been doubly alert going into the 4th: his starter had already given up 6 earned runs; his lineup had scored 5 runs and the game was still very winnable. Thus to me his inaction until Wright had given up 10 runs was a huge mistake for which there is no justification. He had an extra reliever in the bullpen and two long relievers. Oh, and 3 days later, Monday, was going to be an rest day for the entire team.

It's still June, so Nick is jumping the gun, true, but we are just 4 games ahead of Seattle in the wild card and Seattle is 7 games ahead of LA. The larger point is being a wild card team, period. It's dangerous because getting to the ALDS requires a one game playoff, and meanwhile the ALDS opponent is busily lining up its rotation.

Gray gets 2 outs in the 7th--the 2d on three straight cut fastballs (93mph) for a K--but also give up a run, and Boone calls for a new arm with a man on 1b. Wow. Remember how Giradi had a rep for overusing his bullpen? Well Boone appears to think the same way. Oh, and Betances struck out the first batter on 4 pitches, easy-peasy.

A perfectly fair comment. However, those weren't the only hanging knuckleballs Wright threw Friday night, and that's my issue with leaving him in. Apropos of nothing, I've been watching the Phillies--NYY game, and in the bottom of the 6th inning the Yankees starter, who had been fantastic, gave up a single and a walk and a soft grounder to 2b that advanced both runners--to 2b and 3b with 1 out and the score 2-0 with the Yankees on top. NYY Yankees manager immediately brings in Robertson, who gets a K and a grounder to 2b to end the threat. Robertson is 33 and has a fantastic knuckle curve that breaks sharply down and a 95 mph fast ball. I would use him in the 8th in a heart beat, but the NYY got Betances, et all for the the 8th and later. I like our bullpen. I think they are good, but I don't think they are as good or as deep as the Yankees bullpen. And bullpens can make the manager's job oh so much easier.

No doubt in my mind about that whatsoever. Sox badly needed someone like Sale and he has more than filled the bill, plus he is a real professional ballplayer. I can't remember another Sox pitcher better at covering 1B on grounders to the right side, and last night he dove for that bunt because he knew it was a hit if he didn't get it. That's why I wonder how Pomeranz and ERod, to cite two examples, can watch Sale cover 1B and then do the exact opposite. The Fenway cops need to give both of them tickets for loitering around the mound. Sale is just a pleasure to watch because he takes the game seriously--every aspect of of it.

Can't disagree with you on any of those points, but I can disagree with leaving Wright in when the Sox had scored 5 in the 1st and therefore could win the game. This became much harder when Wright gave up the final 4 runs to make the margin 10-5 against a pitching staff that has been pretty good. I was OK with leaving him in for the 2d inning for the reason you state. Sort of OK with the 2d when he gave up 2 more but which was vindicated by the clean 3d. But I think he should have got someone warming up at the first sign of trouble in the 4th and did not. Given the first 2 innings that was the prudent thing to do. It was the essential thing to do as events proved. Also, as I pointed out on the game thread, in that game Cora had 13 pitchers vs. the norm for MLB teams of 12. That's 8 relievers, including two long relievers who have started this year--Johnson and Velazquez. He has yet to overwork this bullpen. Also, there is no "saving of the bullpen" when the miscreant on the mound has to be pulled early anyway, which is exactly what happened. Wright lasted 3.1 innings, and the bullpen did the rest (5.2 innings). So in fact Cora saved nothing. In fact, that same bullpen had to do 5 innings the next night because ERod stunk it up. But last night Sale went 7 and Kelly and Barnes each went 1 for the shutout. And guess what? Today is a rest day. Did Cora forget about that Thursday night? Don't forget that was also a rest day between the series in Seattle and the series in Minneapolis. I have made countless posts on talksox defending Cora because I like him and think he has been good for this team. But wrong is wrong. Wright had no business being left in a game so that he could give up 10 runs. This time the lineup saved him. In fact, I commented after they had scored 1 lousy run to make the score 10-6 that I liked their unwillingness to roll over and play dead. I don't even mind saying maybe that's because of the way Cora manages. But wrong is still wrong.

It is almost a truism that winning game threads are shorter than losing game threads. Last night was a triumph for Sale and the lineup and it "tied" the Sox with the Yankees in the AL East and stayed even with the Astros for the most wins in MLB, 52. The point is, not much to complain about therefore not much to say. Good news is so boring. Of course the game thread about the 14-10 win in game 1 vs. Seattle is 28 pages because there were lots of things to talk about in that one and not just the great comeback. Wright giving up 10 was worth 10 pages by itself, especially when you throw in the discussion about Cora (to which I contributed my share because I was so darn mad). Also game threads can take on different lives depending on what topic comes up. Sometimes banal, but often interesting. This one should continue if only because there is no game until tomorrow night.

Pretty good discussion lately about Hanley Ramirez. Thanks, everyone.

Of course he's better--miles better. The biggest difference to me is attitude--not just in the games but in preparing to pitch throughout the season and throughout the year. I think deep down ERod is lazy. He actually has a pretty good repertoire and, when it's right, the best changeup on the team. But he doesn't seem to bring the same pitches to every game, he seems to be gaining weight, he's lazy about covering 1B, etc, etc.

Definitely a rookie mistake with Wright on the mound--probably because he hasn't seen how knuckleballers can suddenly go flat.

My one tweak might be to trade Natick To NC, but I don't think we could get much for him.

I knew you were going to say something like that after today's game.

And the Yankees lost in 12 to the Rays.

ERod is beginning to remind of that other lefty Felix Doubront. Tonight he didn't have his best stuff, so he just kind of went through the motions. And, to top it off, he was late covering 1B. It looks like he is gaining some weight too.

Lin looks awful in his first two at bats. Clueless. 2 K's. For the season he is well under the Mendoza Line. and tedwilliams101 wants to play him every day.

Bulletin to tedwilliams101: the Yankees caught the Sox on May 8. It's been back and forth since then. Why are you in such a panic?

Team likes like crap tonight. Devers, especially, but honestly ERod looks like he only wants to go 5 innings, if that.

Why are we comparing Devers and Moncada when the deal was for Sale, who I think has been more than satisfactory? Moncada is a year older than Devers and already not as good a ballplayer--hitter, anyway--in my opinion. He is clearly a better athlete, and I am certainly worried about Devers' weight which could seriously erode his potential and even his ability to play a lot. 6 feet tall and 230 pounds (or more) is a little scary even though right now he carries it well.

They sure do, but I was hoping no one would notice. Plus, to be honest, I do think they have the best lineup in MLB.

Good news on the hitting front came just in time because Wright last night reminded us of the fragility of the knuckle ball--10 runs worth in 3.1 innings. Wright had by far the best ERA in the rotation before last night because he was simply unhittable and that knuckle curve and not-horrible fastball were like icing on the cake. Only this time the cake came out flat, flat, flat. So now maybe our rotation ain't the 2d best in the majors. A weeks or so ago the Sox had the third best ERA in MLB, and now they are 7th. The good news is they are still 3d best in the AL behind the Yankees and Astros. And they are #1 in MLB in runs scored. And something else I saw in the series at Yankees stadium where the Sox lost 2 of 3 but had a shot at winning all 3 and again later in Seattle when they split and again last night when Wright had that horrible 1st. This team is tougher than they look. When JBJ is in CF they got three midgets in the outfield. Devers still has his baby fat out there at 3B and sometimes seems very undisciplined. Bogie, who should be short, is a tall SS who ain't brilliant by any means, but sure wants to keep that job. 2B isn't a disaster, but it sure doesn't look the way it did when Pedey--still on the DL--was out there. Both catchers are good on defense, but not on offense. But overall this lineup, led by JDM who is pretty much on par with Big Papi in his best seasons--wild applause for DD for getting him--is just plain tough even though some games they can get shut down. But to me that's OK because they are pretty young: only Moreland, JDM, and Nunez/Holt are over 30. And, mad as I am at what he did last night, just maybe Cora is one of the reasons these guys seem to be pretty resilient.

Exactly right. I said it when the score was 10-6--the Sox had just gotten 1 back--and was still furious at Cora. The lineup bailed Cora out last night. And the bullpen did a good job too. I was surprised at how bad Wright could be when the knuckler wasn't working--a disaster. Given his previous starts--all good--Copa should have realized after the 1st inning he had a time bomb on his hands, but he didn't. That was especially galling because the lineup scored 5 in the bottom of the 1st kept the Sox in the ball game even after 2 more by Seattle in the 2d. On top of that is that Cora has 13 pitchers right now--one extra--and two long relievers, Velazquez and Johnson, to take care of these starter disasters. If LaBelle had been the LaBelle of a week ago last night, I would honestly not have cared what Cora did once Wright gave up the first 4 runs. The game would have been over in my mind. Just a bad read by Cora. Simple as that.

I take it back. What a bunch of quitters. Just a 2 run dinger and then a triple in the 6th. Are these guys trying? What a phony hit by Bogie. Who cares that Moreland scored to make it 10-9.