Maxbialystock

A big discussion on Vazquez on I think Part III of a Realistic View of 2021, the upshot of which is that, while Vazquez may have his faults, there is near universal agreement he should be the starting catcher. Even I agreed to that if only because I trust Cora and Cora believes in Vazquez. On the other hand, I do get into games, and tonight I am furious that Whitlock kept throwing fastballs which the Rays kept hitting hard even thought Whitlock has a good assortment of breaking balls. Right now Kittredge of the Rays keeps throwing sliders and is mowing the Sox down. So, yes, right now I think Vazquez is dumb, the pitchers are dumb, the pitching coach is dumb, and so is the manager. They all love fastballs and so do opposing hitters.

That had to one of the stupidest at bats I've seen from JDM. But it also shows the value of throwing breaking balls. Too bad the Sox pitchers prefer heat.

A day's rest has apparently not done much for the bullpen. Same crap as Sunday. It has not helped that Whitlock, far and away the Sox best reliever statistically and going in with a clean inning, was encouraged to keep throwing fastballs no matter what. And, in case anyone has forgotten, the two losses, 1-0 and 9-8, to the Jays were on fastballs by Barnes who apparently decided that, well, he doesn't really need that knuckle curve or changeup any more.

Hey, big guy, are you paying any attention to what is happening on the field? Whitlock throwing 80% fastballs gives up 4 hits, 2 BB's, and 2 runs. Whitlock throwing changeups: 2 straight K's. And please note, again, I am blaming Vazquez, Whitlock, and the pitching coach. They were all pretty stupid tonight.

Now three straight changeups and strikes for a k. What are Vazquez, the pitching coach, and especially Whitlock so unbelievably stupid?L

I've accepted that Cora wants him to catch every game possible, plus I pointed out that Whitlock seemed perfectly happy throwing 80% fastballs despite getting hit hard. And, whoops, there goes another rubber tree plant. A hard single off another Whitlock fastball. Now a first pitch changeup swung on and missed, which is of course meaningless because only fastballs are worth throwing. Now a K on a changeup!!!! What is wrong with this picture? A dumb fan, me, sees what the problem is before Vazquez, Whitlock, or the pitching coach does.

Why did Whitlock keep throwing fastballs, which were getting hit hard, and why did Vazquez keep calling for them?

Absolutely no question that both the Springer game winner yesterday and the Guerrero game winner Saturday were more likely because those two, especially Guerrero, are very good hitters. On the other hand, that's all the more reason for Barnes to give it his best effort. Against Guerrero on Saturday, his first pitch was a fast 96 mph right down the middle, which Guerrero jerked out of the park. Interestingly, Barnes faced Guerrero again yesterday and struck him out, but this time he mixed in curves and change-ups. Also, against Springer yesterday Barnes threw mostly fast balls, which were obviously tempting fate. Barnes must mix in breaking balls, especially his knuckle curve, to be successful.

Agree on all as I did when you first said this. However, I'm still pissed that the guy hasn't played a single game yet. Also, even though I no doubt mistakenly think 1b is the easiest infield position, this season on this Sox team it appears to be twice as tough as SS, 3b, or 2b. Dalbec, a trained thirdbaseman, has struggled at 1b. Arroyo injured himself playing there. And, for all we know, Schwarber's groin pull happened as a result of just practicing at 1b. Gone are the days when a third baseman like Youk could move to 1b seamlessly and skillfully. Ditto Mike Napoli, a career catcher. Even Ted Williams late in his career could play 1b semi-adequately.

Possibly. Certainly others have done so this season. But, assuming that Cora has every intention of keeping Vazquez in the primary slot, we are only talking about a few more games for Plawecki, maybe 3 or 4. Plus let's not forget that Plawecki doesn't have Vazquez's annoying habit of running into outs at every opportunity.

Ahem. His last turn was Saturday. On that day, playing a double header (7 + 8 innings), the Sox gave up a total of 2 runs in 15 innings--1 run in each game. I do think Sale would have lasted longer than Houck (3.2 innings, 1 run), but cannot be sure he would have given up 1 or no runs. The 2018 Sale could certainly have done better than Houck, but the August 2021 Sale is still a question mark. Pitching well in AA and/or AAA no longer provides the same level of assurance it once did.

As disappointing as the Toronto series was--especially yesterday's game when the Sox blew an 8-4 lead--my take away is that the Sox are only mostly dead. It's still too early to look for loose change in the Red Sox corpus. Why? Four reasons. First and foremost, the Sox came to Toronto limping badly. The rotation stunk, the hitting was almost as bad, the baserunning stunk, and the defense was nothing to brag about. And, true to that storyline, the Sox got killed Friday night, 12-4, with their putative ace Eovaldi on the mound. He threw 4 superb shutout innings and was destroyed in the 5th, when he gave up 7 runs and the Jays scored 9 total. But Saturday was a vastly different story. The Sox had a real shot at winning both ends of that double-header because Pivetta was at his best (6 innings, 0 runs, 1 hit) and Houck was about what we hoped for (3.2 innings, 1 run). Meanwhile the hitting was miserable in both games and scored a total of 2 runs, one of them (the game-winner) unearned, in 15 innings. In the 2d game, which the Sox won, the bullpen (Taylor, Whitlock, Barnes, and Ottavino) pitched 4.1 shutout innings, which is kind of what they have done all season long. Then yesterday the hitting finally took hold against a lefty, Ryu, who has plagued them in previous games: 8 runs on 16 hits (4 by JDM, 3 by Plawecki, 2 each by Bogie, Devers, Dalbec, and Duran). Even starter Richards was better than his usual, going 5 innings while giving up 4 (3 earned). But yesterday the bullpen (Taylor, Sawamura, Ottavino, and Barnes) all struggled and gave up 5 earned runs in 3 innings and lost a 4 run lead and the game. My take, no doubt overly optimistic, is that the Sox came oh so close to winning this series, 3 games to 1, against a team that is actually very good and playing their best ball of this season. And they did so because the rotation actually began to show some signs of competence (even though I hope the Sox dump Richards and Perez soon) and because the hitters showed some signs of life. As for the bullpen, I think that 4th game in 3 days was just a bridge too far. Taylor, Sawamura, Ottavino, and Barnes have all been terrific this season and were in fact terrific in game 3, the second game on Saturday. So, in sum, I see positive signs in the rotation and the hitting and believe that bullpen is still good. Also, the Sox could have swept the last 3 games in Toronto, winning one by 1 run and losing the other two each by 1 run. Indeed, both of those 1 run Sox losses were on dingers given up by Barnes, who apparently has decided that he doesn't need (or believes he no longer has) that knuckle curve that used to destroy hitters.

I prefer moonslav's approach insofar as it compares the two catchers pitcher by pitcher. I also disregard 2020 for obvious reasons. This year Vazquez and Plawecki are close, with a slight edge to Vazquez, on catching Eovaldi. Vazquez is the only one to catch ERod, who is having easily his worse year with the Sox, but that is somewhat explained by ERod's COVID and heart issues last year (and this), so I call it neutral in terms of comparing the two catchers. No discredit to Vazquez for ERod's bad year. Plawecki has a clear edge catching Pivetta, which I think is a big deal, and Richards, which is probably irrelevant since I'd like to boot Richards. And Vazquez has a big edge catching Perez, also irrelevant. Big edge to Vazquez catching Barnes, which I think could be significant. Plawecki was catching both games, Saturday game 1 and yesterday's game, when Barnes gave up homers in both games. I cite those games because I do blame Plawecki in part for the two dingers if only because he went along with Barnes preference for establishing his authority with heat. Both dingers were off fastballs, and I believe Barnes can excel as a closer only if the hitters do not or cannot have a reasonable expectation of seeing a fastball, especially one down the middle and that it's the catcher's job to ask for that knuckle curve. A possible excuse for Plawecki is that Barnes could be less confident in his knuckle curve these days because of the dictum on not doctoring the baseball. But, at the end of the day, it's results that count, and Barnes, by the numbers, stinks when Plawecki is behind the plate. Neither catcher is good at throwing out baserunners, but Vazquez is still the better--20% of the time vs. 10%. Both have more than their fair share of passed balls--Vazquez 9 to Plawecki's 3. So, even though there's a lot I don't like about Vazquez, I do give him the edge, but not by much. Plus Plawecki is hitting better.

Yesterday, pretty darn good pitching. Today good hitting. I see hope for a rotation of Sale/Eovaldi/Pivetta/Houck/ERod and the lineup we saw today and despite the continuing absence of Schwarber and Arroyo who appear to be dedicated IL'ers.

Whoa, Nellie. I'm the one defending Richards, whom I despise, but not because because he was great but because our expectations were low and because he left the game when the Sox were leading 7-4 after 5 innings. This was an adequate start under the circumstances. The bullpen normally could hold a 3 run lead, which became a 4 run lead, for 4 innings. About Barnes. I think his formula for success is simple: mix the fastball with knuckle curves and be able to command both pitches. When he gives up the knuckle curve, as he clearly did tonight, he is dead meat. Both dingers off Barnes--in yesterday's day game and today's game--were off of fastballs near the center of the zone. I will agree with the backsliding if you agree he needs that knuckle curve working to be successful.

You and I may be the only semi-optimists still standing. I loved the hitting tonight. I loved both starts yesterday. I think the bullpen is still good. A rotation of Sale, Eovaldi, Pivetta, Houck, and ERod could work, especially if the hitting comes back as it did today and if the bullpen recovers from one bad game. Someone needs to tell Barnes that, if he relies on his fastball as he did yesterday and again tonight, he cannot be a reliable closer. He must use and command both the knuckle curve and the fast ball. Even that changeup is better than a steady diet of fastballs.

Exactly. Barnes must have command of both his fastball and his knuckle curve, and tonight he didn't have it with the curve and used his fastball too much vs. Springer. He needed just one stinking out to get out of the 8th and couldn't deliver until after the 3 run dinger when he finally mixed up his pitches and struck Guerrero out.

Agree. We have a good bullpen, but not today. Just like we have a good lineup, but sure did much good in it in yesterday's double header.

Barnes succeeds when he mixes his knuckle curve and his fastball with a decent amount of command. He got killed tonight because he kept throwing fastballs to Springer. He also walked the Jays #9 hitter, McGuire.

One more time. Richards gave up 3 earned runs in 5 innings, and the bullpen gave up 5 earned runs in 4 innings. Taylor, Sawamura, Ottavino, and Barnes--all normally, usually pretty reliable relievers--were all off tonight. For example, Taylor, a lefty in to pitch first to a lefty, walked him, and it was downhill after that. So in comes Sawamura to bail him out and does a pretty good job. Then he loses it badly in the 7th, so in comes Ottavino, who does OK in the 7th--those 2 runs are charged to Sawamura. In the 8th Ottavino gives up a single but gets 2 outs. Nevertheless, Cora brings in Barnes to get a 4 out save with a 2 run lead, and he gives up a walk before the 3 run game-winning dinger, after which he strikes out Guerrero for the final out and after the Jays go up 9-8 and win the game after the Sox can't do anything in the 9th.

5 innings and going thru the Jays order at least twice. And it was 3 earned runs. The bullpen was not on high alert because none of them warmed up during those 5 innings.

Richards gave up 3 ER's in 5 innings and had to go thru the Jays lineup at least twice. All four Sox relievers stunk, not just Barnes, and gave up 5 earned runs in 4 innings. I don't like Richards at all and think everything about him, including his whiny demeanor, stinks. But this game was on the bullpen.

What a crock. This is entirely on the bullpen with some of the blame falling on the catcher Plawecki. And it wasn't just Barnes. All four of them--Taylor, Sawamura, Ottavino, and Barnes--stunk it up. Barnes relied way too much on that stupid fastball.

That's what happens when Sox pitchers over-rely on the fast ball. Some fault too accrues to Plawecki. After throwing too many fastballs to McGuire and Springer, suddenly Barnes and Plawecki go with the changeups and strike Guerrero out.

I hear you but there is also a famous story about the 1950's Dodgers when three of their players all ended up on 3d base at the same time. You are probably right that back then players were better on the fundamentals, but I also think the games these days are so very much longer that it's harder for players to maintain focus. Back then, too, infielders and outfielders didn't have to adjust to playing in weird formations. Not too long ago I think it was Devers who took 3b when he realized a shift had left it wide open.