Maxbialystock

I agree.

I like Cora, but don't hesitate to criticize. In this case, I think we need to remember that the Reds manager had other relief pitchers besides the two who gave up the 8 runs. He used them because he had an 8-0 lead going into the bottom of the 7th and a 9-3 lead going into the bottom of the 9th.

Did you just say terrible starting pitching? Bello only went 4 innings, true, but he also only gave up 1 run. The bullpen, aided by Kike's errant throws, gave up the other 9 runs.

Good stuff, as always. But I thought this discussion was related to the fateful decision to send out Rodriguez to pitch the 7th last night. That decision was not my decision, nor yours. And all I'm saying is that apparently Cora wasn't so sure about the Sox ability to overcome that 3-0 lead.

Nicely said. Gotta hand it to you. Plus the Sox are still 4th in MLB in runs scored (with fewer games played, yet). So, forgetful me. And yet. The Sox have struggled lately to score runs. But moonslav's point is, what do you call 8 runs, chump change? Maybe the no name offense is ready to hit again. I sure hope so. Tonight we go against righty Luke Weaver, ERA 4.44 in May and 6.1 IP and 0 runs in his last start, against the Cardinals.

You are right, of course. I'm extrapolating. Shame on me. On the other hand, it sure looks as though Cora was doing the same dumb thing. In fact, after the game, he said the big problem for him was that his starter only went 4 innings. So clearly he was reluctant to send out Winck or Crawford when the Sox were not only behind, but being shut out by Lively, who pitched 5.2 scoreless innings. About that great come from behind Sox lineup. I'm looking for it on the Sox schedule--and, sure enough, there it is, during the 8 game winning streak in April-May. Since then (May 6), not so much. In fact, an offense that has struggled recently to score runs. Like 4 runs in 4 games against the Padres and Angels (but not having to hit against Ohtani). True, since then, the Sox did beat up Mr. Pfaadt, he of the 8.37 ERA in May. So we have that going for us. But then just 2 runs (a win) vs. the DBacks and 2 again (a loss)--before last night. So, while I would love to believe the big bats are back, I also know that all 8 runs last night were scored against lousy relievers.

I think our positions have reversed. I don't think last night's game was remotely "very winnable." And I think the facts support me. Fact: the Sox were scoreless for the first six innings against Lively, 5.2 innings, and Young .1 inning. Young, ERA 2.91, could easily have pitched a scoreless 7th inning but by then the Reds were up, 8-0, thanks to brother Rodriguez. So in came the Reds version of Brasier, Ort, Kluber, Rodriguez, whoever: Cruz, ERA 7.47, gave up 3 runs in the 7th and Salazar, ERA 16.20, gave up 5 more in the 9th. And, when things got out of control, in came Diaz for the save. The Reds were in control of this game from the 3d inning on because the Sox lineup was lifeless until the Reds went up by 8-0 and sent in their junk relievers.

Interesting. I think Cora was right last night, but have not considered when/whether pulling Rodriguez. Also, as I keep saying relentlessly, you are assuming the Reds would have sent out their lousy relievers in a close game. I am not. I believe the Reds would have continued to shut down the Sox rotten hitting beyond the 6th inning if they had needed to. Young, ERA 2.91, needed just 4 pitches to get the last out in the 6th and could easily have pitched a scoreless 7th.

I disagree, not because Winck couldn't/wouldn't have succeeded, but because the Sox hitting was dead, dead, dead until the the Red were up 8-0 and sent out their lousy relievers. As I keep reminding you, not only did Lively go 5.2 scoreless innings, but Young could easily have gone 1.1 scoreless innings but was pulled for the 7th because the Reds were up 8-0. So to me Garza, ERA 1.42, was a reasonable compromise to pitch the 5th and the 6th. He got sabotaged by the defense while at the same time the lineup was moribund.

I think our positions have reversed. I don't think last night's game was remotely "very winnable." And I think the facts support me. Fact: the Sox were scoreless for the first six innings against Lively, 5.2 innings, and Young .1 inning. Young, ERA 2.91, could easily have pitched a scoreless 7th inning but by then the Reds were up, 8-0, thanks to brother Rodriguez. So in came the Reds version of Brasier, Ort, Kluber, Rodriguez, whoever: Cruz, ERA 7.47, gave up 3 runs in the 7th and Salazar, ERA 16.20, gave up 5 more in the 9th. And, when things got out of control, in came Diaz for the save. The Reds were in control of this game from the 3d inning on because the Sox lineup was lifeless until the Reds went up by 8-0 and sent in their junk relievers.

You left out a major, major factor. Last night the Sox hitting was moribund for six freaking innings. They couldn't hit Lively, period. That's why Cora didn't want to send out Winck or Crawford. Lively went 5.2 innings, then Young, ERA 2.91, got the last out in the 6th. There is zero doubt in my mind he could also have pitched a scoreless 7th, but by then the Reds led 8-0 thanks to the Rodriguez. Rodriguez never pitches if the Sox lineup had shown any capacity whatsoever for scoring runs. The 8 they did score were off the likes of Brasier, Rodriguez, Ort, et al. I just reread your post and think we are saying the same thing. Don't waste your bullpen when your lineup is moribund.

I'm more even-handed that you give me credit for. I've already pointed out--twice--that in the postgame Cora cited Bello's 4 innings as being a major factor in the loss. That--Bello's 4 innings--and the abysmal hitting by the Sox for the first 6 innings have to be why Cora didn't use Winck. As I just said on the game thread, sending Garza out for 1 or 2 innings was a good interim move. Lively went 5.2 scoreless innings, then Young (ERA 2.91) got the last out in the 6th. He didn't come back for the 7th because by then the Reds were up 8-0. So in came Cruz, ERA 7.47, who promptly gave up 3 runs. So, even though Bello--in my opinion--pitched a very gutsy 4 innings, it was just short enough--your 5 innings to be covered by the bullpen--along with the lousy hitting by the lineup for the first six innings, to persuade Cora not to use Winck.

When Duvall returns, I agree four good hitting outfielders: Yoshida (OPS .875), Duran (OPS .809), Duvall (1.544), and Verdugo (.825). However, of those four, Yoshida is a distant 4th (DWAR -0.7) as a fielder. And let's not forget that both Refsnyder (OPS .792) and Tapia (OPS .726) are also better fielders than Yoshida. So to me there is no way, no how Dalbec gets to DH because that is going to be reserved for Yoshida--good bat, so-so glove. Back to you.

Yeah, I did think about that. As I said, yesterday was a day off, as was last Thursday. Winck pitched 3 on Friday, a 7-2 win. Crawford pitched 2.1 on Saturday, a 2-1 win. And Pivetta pitched 3 on Sunday, a loss. Kluber's on paternity leave. So last night when Bello finished the 4th and the Sox were down just 1-0, Cora had to decide if this game was worth going after. If it was, Winck was the guy to send in because 4 days was plenty of rest. However, Crawford threw just 27 pitches on Saturday, so he could have pitched the 5th and 6th innings yesterday. On the other hand, the Sox were behind--not ahead--by 1 run. And, while they threatened in the 2d inning--until Tapia struck out with the bases loaded--they went down in order in the 1st, 3d, and 4th innings. In fact, Lively pitched 5.2 innings while giving up no runs, no BB's, and getting 6 K's. So, yeah, maybe Cora made the right decision in the 5th inning when he sent Martin out. If he held the line for an inning or two, Cora could always use Winck or Crawford, especially if the lineup showed any signs of life. And that only happened after the Reds were up 8-0 and pretty sure to win.

It's just not that simple. Yes, IP is a big deal for a starter, and this time Bello only pitched 4. But guess what? Last time out he went 7 innings and gave up just 2 runs and the Sox still lost, 4-0. Can you guess who came in and gave up the other 2 runs? Rodriguez, that's who. And that gets to my rebuttal of your blame-shaming of Bello. He only pitched 4 innings, but he also gave up just 1 run. Plus the Sox bullpen was absolutely, positively fully rested with a day off Monday and a day off last Thursday. But guess who comes in to pitch the 7th with the score 3-0 Reds? Rodriguez.

Of course not. Besides, it's obvious from just the few WAR's + ERA's + IP's I provided that WAR is a combination of ERA and IP and goodness knows what else. Winck ranks 6th on the Sox in IP with 32.1, first among pitchers in WAR with 1.8, fourth in ERA with 2.12, fourth in games played with 18, and a lowly sixteenth (16th !!!!!!!!) in K's per 9 innings. Guess who ranks 2d on the Sox in K's per 9 innings? Rodriguez, with 11.3. That said, the leader in K's per 9 innings is Paxton with 12.2, 3d is Schreiber with 11.1, 4th is Sale with 10.6, 5th is Jansen with 10.3, 6th is Pivetta with 9.5, and 7th is Bello with 9.4.

Nice

Really? My take is that Duvall's return takes away the DH position, period. So Dalbec becomes one of three 1B aspirants.

Back to back good comments--yours and the one from moonslav you were responding to. I think your 40% K rate comment is apt, but I also wonder where Dalbec plays when it appears Casas will stick at 1b. And, if not Casas, Turner--so Yoshida can DH and Duvall (due back in June) can play in the outfield with Duran and Verdugo.

Well, I don't agree. We lost the game because of the 5 run 7th inning, which Kike had nothing to do with. As for the semi-miraculous 7th and 9th innings by the Sox hitters, they were largely due to that 8-0 lead which brought in less than stellar relievers by the Reds--Cruz ERA 7.47 and Salazar ERA 16.20. When Lively left the game with 2 outs in the 6th and just a 3-0 lead, the reliever was Young, ERA 2.91. He got the third out in the 6th. Then came the 5 run 7th (with Rodriguez on the mound for the Sox) by the Reds, the 8-0 lead, and the decision not to bring Young back to pitch the 7th. So Cruz came in and gave up 3 runs. With the score now 8-3, with the Reds firmly in control, Sherriff pitched the 8th for the Sox and gave up the 9th and winning run. And, with the score now 9-3, Salazar got to pitch to six Sox hitters, five of whom scored, in the 9th before Diaz came on. As for Kike's error, too bad. Errors happen. My guess is that, because he and Valdez are slow turning double plays, he rushed his throw and missed. And to me the bigger error was by Cora, who sent Rodriguez out to pitch the 7th with the Sox down 3-0. He clearly assumed the Sox would not score any runs in this game.

Perhaps. What do you think of these the pitching WAR's for the Sox on espn-- Winckowski +1.2 ERA 2.23 IP 32.1 Bello +0.8 ERA 3.89 IP 39.1 Sale +0.8 ERA 4.72 IP 55.1 Martin +0.7 ERA 1.32 IP 13.2 Crawford +0.7 ERA 3.30 IP 30.0 Schreiber +0.6 ERA 2.19 IP 17.0

And now we know Cora agrees with you about Bello's 4 innings being insufficient.

Buttressed???? The Sox system is knee deep in SS's, including their 2021 #1 pick (4th overall) who just moved up to AA.

Well said. 8 of the 9 runs last night were earned. We could argue about whether that bad throw by Kike cost a GIDP and more than one run, but, frankly, right now the Sox are weak up the middle in turning double plays because both are slow on the toss, the turn, and the throw to 1B. The Sox system has a veritable mountain of SS's, including the Sox #1 pick (4th overall) in 2021 who just moved up to AA.

Cora says basic problem was Bello only going 4 innings. So he agrees with you.