FredLynn

Lets look at what Lester did in September more closely. He had six starts and lasted more than six innings twice when he lasted seven innings each time. In half of his starts he last 5, 4, and 2.2 innings. Against the Yankees and the Rays he was 0 and 4 in September. He surrendered at least four runs in half his start. He won just once in September and lost five times. His ERA was over 5. Thats not the profile of an ace on my team.

Not agreeing with someone is not the same as ignoring them. His opinion certainly has validity; I just don't agree with him. If he were being ignored there would be no dialogue.

Lets get back to THIS year, the ONLY year that matters. In September, when his team really needed him, his ERA was 5.40 with a record of 1-5. Some ace. In fact, in Aug and Sept combined his ERA was over 4. Aces lead the team; they are at their best when the team needs them the most. Lester has never been a consistent ace. Beckett has. The others on my list have too. Not Lester. Maybe some day.

I don't care now what he did in 2007 or 2008. I care what he did THIS year. Thats the nature of the game. You know that. Its very much a "what have you done for me lately" game. More names, with the above caveat: Sabathia, Hamels, Weaver, Kershaw, Kennedy, Shields, and even Beckett are all better than Lester this year. Lester was good-35th in ERA in baseball. Maybe we are discussing a difference in definitions. A SP can be the best on his team and still not be a true ace. I would say that even on our team this year Lester was not the ace; Beckett was, despite his September. I do not agree that Lester excelled last year. Sorry.

I think we could have made the playoffs if we had grabbed BOTH Bedard AND Harden-barely. But we would have been bounced pretty quickly anyway. Frankly, I am glad it turned out this way. This FORCES our owners to act. That has started with the firing (yes, he WAS fired) of Francona, and it must continue with the firing of our GM, our strength and conditioning staff, and our medical staff (they should have ordered an MRI on Buchholtz in July, when his symptoms started and not waited until August when the test was done and showed a fracture which, if diagnosed and treated in a timely manner, would have allowed him to return in September and yes, I am a doctor; and they blew it with Ellsbury last year too). Anyone who thinks that this current ninth place staff will somehow turn it around to be in the top four is in fantasyland. Wholesale changes are needed. Picking up CJ Wilson, the top FA SP this year, will be insufficient and, frankly, I do not trust Epstein to make the proper choices in the selection of ANY FAs because of his track record with them. If we can get a new competent GM the rebuilding process for our pitching staff and to a lesser extent the position players can begin. Drew will need to be replace; Youkilis cannot withstand the rigors of 3B; and Ortiz is too concerned about ME ME ME and his contract for my liking. We have issues at catcher as well; Salty will need someone to help him out; Varitek is finished. I think that as the team now stands we could make the playoffs next year, but we cannot win a ring until the pitching staff is fixed.

Forsythe, let me clarify: I do think that we have the players to MAKE the playoffs. What I was referring to is being a factor once we get in. A team can bash its way into the postseason, but you must have good to excellent pitching to hope to contend for a ring. Lets look at who we have: Beckett/Lester: serviceable #2-3 SPs, but certainly not aces Buchholtz: one great year, thats it. An X factor. Lackey: the worst SP in baseball and we are stuck with him Wakefield: he will be back if Epstein remains. Part of "the good 'ol boy network" Bard will likely become our closer when Papelbon leaves, and its likely, IMO, that he will take the best deal which probably won't be offered by us. Aceves: could start. Thats really where he belongs, but his results as a SP have not been nearly as good as as a reliever Albers: are you kidding me? Reverted to his career norms late in the year Wheeler: likely gone at $3M/y Jenks: yup, he's ours. Signed for another year. Morales: inconsistent Atchison: up and down from Pawtucket. Good mop up guy, but not good for much else DiceK: gone until August at least. Unlikely to pitch again for the team, fortunately Bowden, Tazawa, Doubront etc: have proven nothing so far. I think thats a fair assessment. Remember: we finish NINTH in the AL in overall ERA. While its possible that some guys could have career years, I am not counting on it. As far as the offense goes, we will score a lot of runs, even with Crawford performing poorly, and even with Gonzalez fattening up his statistics against lower tier clubs (except the Rangers) and choking against the Rays and Yankees and Tigers. As I said, we can bash our way into the playoffs, perhaps, but that will be worth nothing if our pitching staff cannot stop the other guys from scoring. That WILL NOT HAPPEN with the current pitching staff. Period.

In fairness, Clement did get hit in the head and was never the same. Still, the list of his failures is extensive. Here's an article about it: The Epstein 11: 2003: Keith Foulke, three years/$20.5 million. (Stabilized the closer position. Closed out 2004 World Series.) 2004: Edgar Renteria, four years/$40 million. (Bought out after one dismal season for an additional $12 million. Renteria played in Boston for one year for $22 million.) 2005: Julio Lugo, four years/$36 million. (Hit .251 in three seasons. Part of the revolving door for Red Sox shortstops since Epstein traded Nomar Garciaparra.) 2005: Matt Clement, three years/$25 million. (An 18-11 record with a 5.09 ERA in two seasons. One All-Star Game.) 2006: Coco Crisp, three years/$15.5 million (Was put in the unfortunate position of replacing Damon, who had 197 hits in his final year in Boston. Ultimately replaced by the emerging Ellsbury.) 2007: Daisuke Matsuzaka, six years/$52 million, plus a $52 million posting fee that did not count against payroll. (Won 2007 World Series. A .620 career winning percentage. Hasn't pitched 170 innings in a season since debuting in 2007. Has averaged five wins over the last three seasons.) 2007: JD Drew, five years/$70 million. (Average season in Boston: 121 games, .264 average, 16 HR, 57 RBI.) 2010: John Lackey, five years,/$82.5 million. (A 26-23 record, 5.26 ERA, 375 IP, 436 hits so far.) 2010: Mike Cameron, two years/$15.5 million. (A .219 average in 81 games over two seasons. Traded in July of this year. The team moved Ellsbury out of center field upon acquiring Cameron.) 2010: Adrian Beltre, one year/$10 million. (.321 AVG, 49 2B, 28 HR, 102 RBI, All-Star.) 2011: Carl Crawford, seven years/$142 million. (Dismal first season in Boston, but too early to pass judgment.) It might appear at first glance that Ortiz, Epstein's biggest player acquisition score, is conspicuously missing from that list. Ortiz certainly became a star in Boston, but he was not brought there to be one. In December 2002 at the Opryland Hotel in Nashville, Tenn., during Epstein's first winter meetings as GM of the Red Sox, he jousted with the A's Beane over the true object of their affection, Arizona slugger Erubiel Durazo. Durazo went to Oakland and Epstein settled for Jeremy Giambi. When spring training broke in 2003, Ortiz was fourth on the depth chart, behind Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand and Kevin Millar. Epstein might not be responsible for total authorship of every one of those deals. Ownership has its predilections, and general managers often make deals of which they disapprove. But in Epstein's nine years, those 11 major signings totaled $543.5 million; during the same period, the Tampa Bay Rays' entire payroll amounted to $315.8 million on 225 players. Of those 11, only one, perhaps two -- Foulke and Beltre -- can be considered unqualified successes. The 2003 Red Sox introduced then abandoned a disastrous Bill James concept called the "closer-by-committee," the thought being that a real save situation might not occur in the ninth inning, but rather in, say, the seventh. That winter, Epstein signed Foulke, and Boston won the World Series a year later. Beane is sometimes maligned for being lionized despite never winning an ALCS game (never mind advancing to the World Series), but there is no question he revolutionized the front-office game -- who gets jobs, how those jobs are done and what statistical and cultural values are important -- and transformed the position of general manager from anonymous to glamorous. But if the position is now worthy of Hollywood and big money and credit for a team's architecture, it is only appropriate that accountability be part of the equation. If the man running the game from the dugout is now considered a "mid-level manager," according to the Moneyball doctrine founded by Sandy Alderson and perfected by Beane and by Epstein, maybe he isn't the one whose bags should be packed when the plan fails.

Bravo! I come on this board occasionally and have posted this year that I didn't think the Red Sox had a chance to make a significant run because of their lack of pitching. I pointed out that no team has won the ALC in at least 10 years if they finished lower than fourth in overall ERA. That is a fact-and there is a reason for it. I was soundly bashed here for being contrary to the general opinion that this is our year. Guess what: is September our pitching reared its ugly head and we won ONE GAME when we scored fewer than SIX RUNS. We finished NINTH in overall ERA in the AL this year, and we got, in essence, what we deserved. I wish it were different, but this is not fantasy. What I wish were true is rarely true. I think that those who have irrational exuberance for this team next year need to listen a little more acutely to the facts when they are presented.

Umm...yes this WILL happen again in 2012 if Epstein remains in his job. In fact, it will happen again even if he leaves, but at least then healing can take place. It will take years to fix the mess he put this franchise in. Look at all the long term contracts and money tied up in losers that he has saddled us with over the years: Lackey, Crawford, Cameron, Matsusaka....Jenks-all recently. The list gets much longer if you look back a few years: Lugo, Renteria, Clement, Byun-Hyung Kim etc etc. No manager could have won a ring with the dregs he was given by this GM this year. "It" is going to happen EVERY year until Epstein is fired.

You can add me to that list. Epstein MUST go for this team to become relevant again. The list of FA signings that he has saddled us with reads like a grade B horror movie. Its time to clean house. No more Boston Red Sox Country Club Spa; no more whining by the players; no more beer in the dugout; no more staring down the manager when he comes out to remove a pitcher from the game; no more inattentiveness to fundamental baseball skills. We are going nowhere with Epstein as GM and every year he remains is another year in third place.

They will not be starting, no. But all of them will see action. I agree that Beckett/Lester/Bedard are a decent enough starting three. But you cannot win that way. You need competence at nearly every level. After that we have only Bard/Aceves/Papelbon. Six pitchers cannot win the ALC by themselves. Our offense is good, but good pitching will shut them down. I don't expect them to make it out of round 1-if they get there.

This loss is not Weiland's fault. He has been put into an impossible situation, trying to win a game for these LOSERS all by himself. I don't blame him. He will eventually be fine. Its very important that the Rays not only win tonite, but tomorrow as well. They MUST win the WC if EPSTINK is going to be given his pink slip. He will have nowhere to hide if this team blows the WC. Its what has to happen for success in future years. We all know it.

I call 'em as I see 'em. I said much earlier here that we do not have the pitching to win the ALC because no team in at least the last decade has won the ALC having finished lower than fourth in overall ERA. Some here doubted that. Now everyone can see its true. Now I am telling you that in order for this franchise to right the ship, Epstein and Francona must go. Eventually people will see that that is also true. The odds are higher that they will be fired if we blow the WC lead. We should all hope that happens.

Thats great news. Does that mean you won't be posting here any more?

If we make it that far, we WILL lose in the ALDS

Precisely. If we can manage to get swept by the Rays, its just a three game lead. We are perfectly capable of completing our task and blowing that lead. Its very important that that is what we do, to maximize the chance that the owners' hands are forced to act and rid ourselves of our incompetent GM and manager.

This team is TOAST this year...and next year...and the year after that. We will win NOTHING until our GM and manager are both fired. And that could happen if we manage to blow the WC lead. Thats why I am rooting for the Rays to do just that. Short term loss, long term gain. Sometimes you have to build on the future by sacrificing the present.

Instead, we get a GONZO BUM. Getting him was a big mistake. Here is a player who fattens up his numbers against pathetic teams and CHOKES big time against most of the contenders.

Anyone got a link for this game? FOX out here has the damn Giants on TV. Thanks