jung

He was a very good player. He just was never on the field enough to matter except in a few rare and well recorded instances. I think a good many people are indifferent to him now because we just got used to him not being there. Every once in awhile we would check in to see which hangnail was bothering him this time or which toenail was bruised beyond his ability to stem the tide of pain but beyond that ya' nearly fell over in surprise if you saw him trotting out to right field in the first inning. For others his clear lack of "toughness" made him a real lightning rod I think in part because this was nothing new. Drew was known for being soft and I think many right angled their anger at the FO right back at Drew for having ignored that well documented fact. Hard to argue with his output "when he did play". However it probably would not take more than an averaging of his income over total number of at bats or games played or any other measure of units or time and not want to throw up. Just think how bad it would be if the Sox had not won one during his stay here remembering that he did suddenly find a way to contribute down the stretch run and into the post season that year.

You are absolutely right! I did not want to take the time so the "wild ass averaging" was in my head figuring I would take the time in the calculations and maybe learn something about the "logic" of the tax basis in the process.

Funny, as one of my earlier posts indicates the first number I arrived at (via wild averaging while using correct calculations) and tried to use for this exercise if GMing was $27M. So I already know what a pain in the ass number that is. Also, the players union has a web site and that is one of the places where the current CBA is posted. They sure are proud of that damn thing and well they should be actually.

Yes as are signing bonuses. If anybody wants something to help them fall asleep the current CBA is posted on the Internet in several places. The "competitive balance tax" section starts on page 83. The language regarding signing bonuses and other bonuses including performance and awards bonuses begins on page 91 and runs to page 92.

OK thanks. I actually did not understand why the site numbers where being referenced in the luxury tax totals discussion. That explains it Palodius. So is $154.78 the relevant number? Well 117.78 + 24 = 141.78 + 4.4 + 146.1. (131.78 is short by $10M) If we add the 8.6 from dice to that number then you get 146.1 + 8.6 = 154.78

The site referenced has 126.7 excluding arbitration. It also shows $31.5 in arbitration. It averages the cost for the remaining players needed to fill the 25 man roster and calculates that as $2.17M...then totals everything at $160.4M $126.7 + $31.5 + $2.17 = $160.37 $186 - $160.37 = $25.63 That is a tough number if that is correct. The site I would guess is up to date as it is showing no $ in the option line for 2012 which I think would be accurate at this point.

Well 117.78 + 24 is already 141.78 + 4.4 + 146.1. (131.78 is short by $10M) If we add the 8.6 from dice to that number then you get 146.1 + 8.6 = 154.78 $186M is the LT number for 2012 I think. 186 - 154.78 = $31.22M

Well I don't think Edwin Jackson could be had for $5M. If he could be I am buyin' cause I am tellin' ya this is hard as hell with the available money.

He might be on the way to the cubs as he certainly did not pull his name out of the running there.

Jesus...before I started playing with $31 I tried to do what I wanted (or really not) with $27M. That was tough! $24 makes it really tough.

I had been using $31M. I was using a combination of the Luxury Tax plus some Sox business realities which are not very pretty right now and that is how I arrived at $31. Do you want to use $35M or $39? It looks like you might actually be using $39M. Wish I had the fiscal 2011 actuals and the 2012 projections but I don't and I don't expect to see anything that helps until February or March next year.

2/30 makes sense. I will play with that for Beltran and see if I can make some of the other money work. Cuddyer is two years younger but hasn't he started to have problems staying on the field as well?

Yea, I buy that User although at least with the money I am trying to spend the possible AAV for Beltran is what is killing me...plus he is a Boras guy and Boras always seems to extract every last penny out of the big market teams. A wild assed hope on Veaquez figuring he had developed enough of a package of pitches to survive better in Fenway coming back to the AL this time around but just points out how tough the money end is right now. Pretty tough puzzle to put together unless there is more money pumped in to play with than I am figuring on at least for this year.

So just wondering if you were trying to get Beltran to fit or if you really think he could be had for 2/27? Not being critical at all....just wonder if you really think Beltran could be gotten at 2/27. Wouldn't the variable between the two of them now suggest that if Cuddyer can actually pull down 4/50 that Beltran will command better than 2/27?

There is not much money to play with here at this point. One brick wall you run into pretty quickly is that those last few FA deals that the Sox made just has them drowning in cost and most of the cost for AGons doesn't lick in until this year when we start paying him $21M season. We have to pay Crawford $5M more in 2012 than we did in 2011 so even a good portion of the Drew and Cameron money is sucked up immediately by the added payroll from AGons and Crawford. Whether we are getting something for $$ spent or not and in some cases we are and some not, those $ really have us boxed into something of a corner at least as far as things that you can do to make changes. Letting Ortiz go gets you a little financial breathing room but you can spend that money pretty quickly as well.

Well I can afford Vasquez. I am trying to do it on a specific budget, probably a bit lower than Users budget and I am thinking I might could get Vasquez for less money and less time than Jackson. I would like Beltran but I need to find some money from someplace, in fact a couple of someplaces. If not, then I think I could get Cuddyer for less than Beltran and I guess I would have to take Cuddyer and hope he gets through the year.

I should have stuck this in the last post since the question was sort of asked. Either Jackson or Vasquez would cost half or maybe less than half of what Buehrle would cost. I would think maybe $9M for Jackson. Maybe $8 maybe less for Vasquez because of his age. Vasquez could be pliable because of his age and maybe you could get him on a relatively short term contract for not much money. I should have added that the only way to keep Buehrle at close to $14M would be to add what I would think would be to many years and that is what I meant by not being worth $14M. You would probably have to give him 5 years at $15 or more even if you could pry him out of Chicago and he will be 38 I think on that 5th year. If you wanted to keep it down to something like 4 years the money probably turns into something like $17 per year anyway.

Buehrle is getting $14M NOW though and coming off what has been arguably his best season. So even though he is starting to get up there in age, I don't think $14M will get it done for him. This year there is basically Buehrle and Wilson and then a giant drop off from there. This year's crop of guys has more options for guys to fill out the back of the rotation (innings eaters) which is also an area of need for the Sox. Next year is when you end up with many more options for guys that might fit at the upper end of the rotation. I think the Sox will be best served looking to fill out the back end of the rotation this year as you don't have to risk that much money to do that, give Lester one more year to try to move past Beckett which he should have done in 2011 and then jump on a front end of the rotation guy in 2013 if need be. While some of these guys will probably renegotiate with their current teams before they get to the FA market next year, the list for next year currently includes Hamels, Cain, both Anibeal and Jonathan Sanchez, Danks, Lewis, Saunders, Liriano, Guthri, Greinke, Lohse, Markum, Pavano, Blanton, McCarthy, Correia and a whole bunch more. When you compare next years crop of guys to this years, there is just no comparison. This is just not the year that the Sox can pump $16M-$20M into one arm. Even $14M for another arm this year would be tough to swallow if we first want to get Paps back here. Actually I had forgotten about Buehrle's and Chicago although somebody posted a couple weeks ago that prying him out of Chicago would only add to the cost of trying to get him.

Almost every way you look at it Ortiz $12M starts to look pretty attractive when you begin to realize you need to get more bucks from someplace besides JH's pockets.

I really like the everyday players also. The problem is when you look at the available pitches there is just not much there. Buehrle is $14M per year and he not worth that much. CJ is going to take a fortune. As old as he is Javier Vasquez might be short term solution that just gets you past a year or two if no like Jackson. As a group this year's bunch is thin, old, going into surgery, or just not that good for the money they are making. Maybe Vasquez is worth considering for a year or two.

User in your lineup when you do put Beltran in the field would you put him in right or move Ells to right and put Beltran in center? I figure you would have him in the field for some number of games. Could he play our RF?

Yea I guess...I am probably giving too much credit to Buckholtz for pitching in this part in the AL East. If he could have put two 2010 seasons back to back that would have been impressive.

The problem with Gonzalez is that he is not even a 3 in Boston. He is a 4 here but as everybody has said, Oakland would not be looking for 4 compensation. Are they shopping him?

I wonder how much the Roberto Clemente award Ortiz received will influence team's and their willingness/desire to bring him in. There are many teams where that award would go a long way as far as the fan base is concerned. I still don't think that turns into $15M from anybody but I can see him getting $12 for one year and maybe even as much as $11 for two. $10 per for 3 years would be a gift I would think as that last year would be pretty hard to justify.

Well OK I guess I could see where an argument that he is a 1 or is even about to be a 1 would be hard to make but I would think making the argument that he is a 2 for many teams would not be that hard to make. I also agree that I would not want to get caught up in 2 compensation for him either.