jung

Just got home. Cook very efficient so far tonight. Is there some game that is taking everybody's attention? Not many folks here tonight.

I do think JH's comments today were more JH ******** and self serving. I think Agons comments were self serving and may have been a bit of a white lie...who knows....I don't. V's interview today was by far the most telling of all. He is clearly starting to break down from his earlier interviews where he has defended his players. He did not criticize his players but he did not defend them either and got very close to criticism. I am guessing that the day he goes out the door, he is going to lower the boom on this whole miserable mess. As for the meeting in question at least to me there is room for both of the reasons released to the media about the genesis of that NY meeting. The media report is that Agons communicated to JH the desire to have a meeting and that the genesis was V leaving Lester in for 11 runs. The JH story was that he (meaning JH) asked for the meeting and that it was meant to have a much broader set of topics than V or even V ala' the Lester 11 run start. Having gone through things like this as a manager, I have some ideas about what might have happened. I don't know but I have an idea. Agons may have asked for the meeting and may have been as specific about the topic matter as V in general or V about a specific incident. Having had many opportunities to engage in a group meeting of that type as a manager I did not ever avail myself of the opportunity to allow that kind of meeting to take place. I would communicate back to the person sending me the message that I would like to have a meeting but the subject matter for the meeting would be much more broadly based than some one employee in the chain of command between me and some group. If somebody wanted to talk to me one on one about somebody that worked for me...fine...a group meeting with that subject matter....no way. If that is what JH did, then that leaves room for both of the news releases about the genesis for this meeting. Agons asked for one type of meeting and JH responded back to AGons that he wanted a different subject matter making it JH's meeting. Why am I inclined to suggest that the story about AGons communication to JH being the start of the process resulting in this meeting is closer to accurate? Mainly because if your boss sent out a message to employees asking for a broadly based meeting, subject matter regarding what could be done to improve the organization (JH's version) then every employee invited shows up for that meeting and none of the employees at that level in the organization are left uninvited. JH would have invited every player instead of just responding back to Agons. Seventeen players showed up for this meeting with the remainder supposedly not showing up because they had no interest in attending a meeting to complain about V. That by itself suggests that it was not a meeting initiated by JH and not a meeting that the players thought would be broadly based. They all would have shown up for a broadly based meeting to discuss how to improve the team generally and in fact any player would have been noticeably absent if he did not attend a meeting so defined. Frankly the only thing that makes sense to me knowing that seventeen players came is that the players were under the impression that it would be a session allowing them to air their differences with V and some of the players were unwilling to attend such a meeting. Just play better Red Sox....just play better....what a novel idea.

I do think JH's comments today were more JH ******** and self serving. I think Agons comments were self serving and may have been a bit of a white lie...who knows....I don't. V's interview today was by far the most telling of all. He is clearly starting to break down from his earlier interviews where he has defended his players. He did not criticize his players but he did not defend them either and got very close to criticism. I am guessing that the day he goes out the door, he is going to lower the boom on this whole miserable mess. As for the meeting in question at least to me there is room for both of the reasons released to the media about the genesis of that NY meeting. The media report is that Agons communicated to JH the desire to have a meeting and that the genesis was V leaving Lester in for 11 runs. The JH story was that he (meaning JH) asked for the meeting and that it was meant to have a much broader set of topics than V or even V ala' the Lester 11 run start. Having gone through things like this as a manager, I have some ideas about what might have happened. I don't know but I have an idea. Agons may have asked for the meeting and may have been as specific about the topic matter as V in general or V about a specific incident. Having had many opportunities to engage in a group meeting of that type as a manager I did not ever avail myself of the opportunity to allow that kind of meeting to take place. I would communicate back to the person sending me the message that I would like to have a meeting but the subject matter for the meeting would be much more broadly based than some one employee in the chain of command between me and some group. If somebody wanted to talk to me one on one about somebody that worked for me...fine...a group meeting with that subject matter....no way. If that is what JH did, then that leaves room for both of the news releases about the genesis for this meeting. Agons asked for one type of meeting and JH responded back to AGons that he wanted a different subject matter making it JH's meeting. Why am I inclined to suggest that the story about AGons communication to JH being the start of the process resulting in this meeting is closer to accurate? Mainly because if your boss sent out a message to employees asking for a broadly based meeting, subject matter regarding what could be done to improve the organization (JH's version) then every employee invited shows up for that meeting and none of the employees at that level in the organization are left uninvited. JH would have invited every player instead of just responding back to Agons. Seventeen players showed up for this meeting with the remainder supposedly not showing up because they had no interest in attending a meeting to complain about V. That by itself suggests that it was not a meeting initiated by JH and not a meeting that the players thought would be broadly based. They all would have shown up for a broadly based meeting to discuss how to improve the team generally and in fact any player would have been noticeably absent if he did not attend a meeting so defined. Frankly the only thing that makes sense knowing that seventeen players came is that the players were under the impression that it would be a session allowing them to air their differences with V and some of the players were unwilling to attend such a meeting. Just play better Red Sox....just play better....what a novel idea.

Blame upper management and business operations for having put together a bad combination of players and calling it a team but blame the players themselves for their on field performance. The game is played on the field and they simply play like s***. V gets some of the blame but mainly for not being himself....he may well have been doomed to go down from the start but at least he should have gone down his way. His field decisions have not been great in some instances but we have watched this team play all year....what would you do? They don't do much of anything well. They are slipping in runs scored (now third) and with Ortiz out and Salty not dependable they are slipping in the HR totals as well.

No and it is not an interesting topic.

I think it is a 50-50 shot that he makes it back because his entire career has been a 50-50 shot. He has had periods of utter failure followed by flashes of brilliance. People keep trying to get him to some level of consistency because he has stuff or had it. The latest episode of obsessing over him is mainly founded in the idea that the Sox were (with emphasis on the were) grooming him to be a closer. What people forget is that in this story of chicken and egg the egg was the Sox giving up on him as closer. The chicken was deciding to try to develop him as a starter. He may or may not make it back as some sort of relief pitcher. I believe closing is out and starting is out. I think we should be making less out of this "we ruined Bard" stuff regardless of the fact that trying to develop him as a starter was a colossal failure and simply deal with the idea that he is very likely one of God only knows how many pitchers with stuff and no control or consistency that never makes it. It happens....a lot in fact. The management of this organization has been pretty pathetic of late I know but I am not sure that this player is more than he ever has been and may well be less than we tend to think he is.

Amazing just amazing...we have gone on mostly even as a board making excuses for and accepting that total sack of s*** Aviles at SS for most of a season and question whether Ciriaco can play the position or not. I swear to God it is enough to drive you to drink. I would love Iggy to be here and playing SS....the way they have handled SS here is one of my biggest disappointments with this team. However Ciriaco has a place here as well, doing something....anything. I am tired of the half baked s*** that we have been seeing in Red Sox uniforms of late and I am completely willing to see a bunch of this trash just sent packing to get some fresh blood in here. Punto can be brought in here for us to endure for a year but there is no place for Ceriaco? If they can't flesh off enough of this slop in red hose to make room for both they are just blind or to arrogant to admit their mistakes....maybe both. Ceriaco has what Nava never had...talent. Nava makes the most he can out of being a smart discipled ballplayer...that is as far as it goes.

I think there is still a glimmer of hope about this being a much better team than it is because we have not seen this year's September collapse yet. As bad as they have played....they are likely to play worse in this period where they have to play teams that are actually still playing for something this year. Somebody said they thought the Sox would play 350 ball out the season. I don't think they will play that badly but I do not think they will even play 500 ball which means they will end up below 500 for the season....winning fewer than 81 games. This has not been a sudden deterioration either...they have been headed here for awhile now. Maybe they are finally going to show us what rock bottom looks like.

I know nobody wants to hear this but in the end the Sox may end up lucky to have both Ciriaco and Iggy.

V won't have to walk away. I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell that V is here next year. He will get through the season because there is NO rational for management to appear to give the players what they appear to want. Look while Tito was very vocal about no longer being able to get the players to respond to him or for him, the players have done nothing for V either..that by itself spells death for the manager. I think there is little doubt that this latest meeting came as a result of some sort of communication from the players to upper management....again. Does not matter whether the players specifically pointed to V in wanting the meeting or not. While they could have danced around the topic in communicating their desire for a meeting....I don't think there is much of a chance that they discussed much else in such a meeting.....c'mon...a mid-season meeting that includes the FO and upper management but does not include the manager is about some other topic than the manager...how thick are those blinders?

Well Lester if he stays has to be either a 3 or lower in the rotation. I would not rate Buch higher than a 2. None of the remaining guys are capable of being a 1 or a 2. So if they believe that this team of everyday players is good enough then you empty your gun trying to get a 1 for the rotation in this off-seasn, even if it means you give up one of your favorite sons. As you have pointed out Doc even the favored sons are aging and you have to give something up to get something. However....Ortiz will have to stay at least one more year if the plan is try to make a one year turn. They have to resign him as they cannot get anything out of him as a FA. They won't be able to give up his bat and give up one of the other favored son's bats at the same time. I think folks are more in favor of trying to solve this bringing in a 3 for the rotation which will do nothing. I am inclined to think they want to do that because they don't want to give up any of the favored sons. I guess we have not gotten the s*** kicked out of us enough not having a legit 1 in the rotation for two years running.

This has turned out to be such a typical 2012 game. How many of these have we seen this year?

Which is in part why laying the blame for this mess of a season all at the feet of Beckett and Lester is such ********. I understand it. Folks are trying to parse this mess down to a simple cause and a simple fix cause it suits there purposes to parse it down to a simple cause and a simple fix. I still think the Sox are fortunate in that bringing in a real legit 1 here might be all it takes to make a huge difference in this rotation even with Lester still here. They can thank Buch and Felix in the main for making it possible to turn the rotation around by getting a legit 1. A huge dif in the rotation might be enough to encourage the everyday players to play some form of baseball again instead of whatever the f*** this is. However getting a legit 1 is not easy and it could very well take more than one off season to do it. That does not bother me either as this team is truly f***ed up...enough to believe a two year fix will be required. Need a new pitching coach also.

Ah yes...the master strategy taking shape

Don't know if Mark learned from Fats or if Fats learned it from him. We could name it the Albers Memorial Home Run to perpetuity.

If they do keep Pedey next year and I suspect they will, he needs to put his mouth back in his back pocket where it has been all these years....Pedey was in trouble from the start trying to stick himself into a role he is just not cut out for. Great ballplayer....needs to go back to just focusing on what happens on the field. and now 1 for 10 with guys in scoring position.

Now 1 for 9 with guys in scoring position...lets go for double digits but hey...second most runs in the league....tough offense They are lucky though...at least they have a Pawtucket kid at the plate. Maybe something good will happen for a change.

Sorry SCM...I did not even look at the handle. I am so fed up with people making excuses for this sorry assed team that I jumped at the bait. We are 1 for 8 tonight with guys in scoring position for guys that want to argue that these guys do play well together as a team. In fact I just don't know what the argument is anymore. They are not even a 500 team anymore.

Beckett looked sharp for how many innings? Give it up please....just give it up. The only question on Becket is if the Sox will have to pay his salary and give the other team some sort of signing bonus for taking him.

Keystone cops strike again.

That the team is constructed this poorly is on management. That they play this badly is largely on them. They are supposed to be professional baseball players at the highest level of the game. You would expect a bit more versatility out of that calibre of player. Heck we have guys that can't move in the lineup for crying out loud!

I said it so many times early in the year it was coming out my ears....this team did Pedey no favors looking to him for the kind of leadership that is more vocal and more visible off the field...your wisecracking spark plug guy rarely makes for the guy you want to step forward into the kleg lights to speak for the team. Based on Pedey's time with us you would guess he would open mouth and insert foot caught like he was under the circumstances of the youk discussion. Make no mistake about it...I don't give a s*** what V was doing in his role as manager. He had the job and presuming management did not rein him in before that...that is on management not on V. We do have some evidence that V would have toned down his act if management had set that as an expectation for him as he surely toned down his act as soon as management left him to twist in the wind. Management should not have hired V....hiring him they should have either let him be or set expectations for him...Pedey should have not have opened his big mouth because he set himself up as the spokesman for the organization...not just the team with his "we don't" comment and finally, while on the one hand it was a tough spot for V to be in, if I were him I would have gone to management and said f*** you....you hired me to do a job....you did not qualify that job nor set expectations outside of me doing the job as I saw fit and you end up cutting the legs out from under me! I want to know what the expectation is and as long as I don't step out beyond them I need you guys to support me. If you can't do that...go f*** yourselves.

All the Sox as a "team" had to do to make all that media s*** go away was win. They didn't and they haven't. They may not like it but that is the way it is. Our poor abused cherub players play like s*** and until they stop they are likely to end up with even more media ******** to deal with.

For those with selective memory...Bell is correct....what the hell do you people think Tito was talking about anyway? This team has quit on two completely different managers in two separate years....they just quit on V earlier this year than they quit on Tito and for all his cribbage playing...it sure as hell did not look like Pedey did anything to rally the troops last year and Tito did not qualify his comments about not being able to reach the players and get the desired result out of them. I would defy anybody to look at the bulk of those at bats in September of last year and claim they are markedly different from may of the at bats we have seen this year as well. The only difference between these two years ultimately will be that we will be treated to the results when you play an entire year like this (the AL East Basement) as opposed to what happens when you play like this for a period shorter than a year (out of the post season).

Actually I misspoke earlier...Beckett and Lester are not the worst examples of the Sox starting pitching this year....Bard is. He did not get through half the season before falling apart.....and the answer for Bard was who...dice...Cook...please...or was is Morales coming in to save the day....or is it rookie Felix currently resting as you might expect for any rookie not accustomed to innings. The Sox had no plan at all for starting pitching this year and can thank their lucky stars that Buch has pulled it together. Laying this mess of a rotation and this mess of a season entirely at the feet of Beckett and Lester is laughable. For his part Lester has left 8 games this year not involved in the decision. Who lost those games....the ghost of Lester?