jung

I actually think the best path for the Sox to take will be to work to a longer range plan to rebuild this team. In the first place it will likely take some amount of luck to get a 1 in here for this rotation in one off season. Doubt they will get that lucky.

Felix Hernandez

I hope I am wrong too Bell. I just don't see it though. They seem destined to not being satisfied until they do with him what they seem to do so often...leave him down there until he finally injures himself trying to satisfy their desires to turn him into something he is not going to be. This nonsense about him needing to exhibit more power is just that...nonsense....more rationalizing for why he needs to stay in Pawtucket. The next kid in line for the job is in double AA and appears to be much more of a Sox typical SS. He will likely hit better but never be the innings changing defender that Iggy can be at SS. The Sox are more likely to stumble and bumble along at SS, ultimately trading Iggy and likely waiting for the next kid in line to make his way up the ladder. God help them though if they end up with more pitchers like Lackey or Cook. These guys seem bound and determined to build teams that just shoot themselves in the foot at every turn.

a) Seattle does not go for that deal Iggy does appear to be hitting good enough but it is pretty clear the Sox do not want him up here. They will trade him at some point. Read Mike Hazen's recent comments on Iggy. Now they acknowledge that he has made great improvements as a hitter but while also acknowledging that he is always going to be a contact hitter they want to see him utilize more power....they want more line drives in the gaps....the guy is a game changing innings changing....defensive SS who they acknowledge will always be a contact hitter and now they want more gappers Well, how many more gappers would that be Mr. Hazen.....for a guy you acknowledge is always going to be a contact hitter how many gappers are you looking for? Is there a sabremetrics for gappers that will work for you? Why not ask James to gin one up for you. Then you can look at it and wait for Iggy to get to the right number. They will trade Iggy. I almost hope they trade him to a AL team so that he can come back and turn rally innings into nothing right before their eyes because this is one time they deserve it. Any team that could "think" its way to Mike Aviles as an everyday SS has no idea what their expectations should be for an everyday SS and certainly has no way to understand what Iggy is or could be. For his own good it would be better for Iggy to go to a national league team where even with pitchers hitting, they would likely have more appreciation for what Iggy can be.

Buch is worth more to the Sox keeping him than trading him away and he IS a pitcher. It is pitching that is the problem...we all acknowledge that. What Buch is not is a 1. Making Buch the 1 here would be even more foolish than anointing Lester was or thinking that Beckett could continue to be.

Winning is what matters and they can't win. Don't even have a ghost of a chance of winning cause they can't pitch. Yet we keep talking about everyday players that must hit in particular parts of the lineup and must stay and on and on and on like it matters! They can't win games....against anybody...even in their own ballpark. This team is failing in epic fashion now. Pedey is one of the only truly attractive pieces they have and one of the few guys that they could trade that as part of a package could bring back the only asset they can bring here that will make a difference. There is less risk in trading Pedey at this point than once again trading away guys that are one or two years away from playing on their roster. We already know what this cast of characters does....it losses....it losses famously now. There are already players that they can't trade because their contracts are radioactive. As good as Pedey is, he is still a second baseman...not a pitcher. They should spare no expense in bringing someone here that can actually make a difference, not stubbornly continue to institutionalize failure. On the other hand I would not trade Pedey just to trade him. Either Pedey as part of a package gets you what you need or he does not. If he does not I would not trade him.

Regardless of what they are controlling it sounds more like what Shop is saying is that upper management and the players don't see eye to eye. While I agree that those two groups control this team with little left for the guys in the middle to do....that they both control this team AND don't agree is even worse, an uglier can of worms than those two groups controlling and agreeing. In point of fact neither group knows anything about running a baseball team nor would you think they would. That much should be clear by now. The guys in the middle are generally the guys with some baseball sense....some idea about running a baseball team. Needless to say, the guys in the middle at Fenway are't much to write home about either. It really does not matter....hiring V was a huge mistake only trumped by hiring him and then castrating him....the organizational hole the Sox have dug for themselves is now deeper than it has ever been.

I don't see them giving up Buch. Why should they give up the best pitcher they have when they are so weak in starting pitching. They need to add not subtract from the starting pitching. Regardless of what they should or should not do, chances are very good that Ells agent will not make it possible to keep him....when your pitching sucks you have to spend your resources to resolve that issue. Spending another $16-$20M on yet another everyday player when you can't pitch your way out of hat makes no sense and I don't see how FA does not net Ells something in that range. The Sox have a cost controlled player waiting in the wings and that will be the influence that will keep the Sox from paying Ells that kind of money. Keep talking about these guys like they are winning something...they can't win games! They can't win games cause they can't pitch. None of these sacred cows are sacred any longer.

That assumes that JH, LL and BC did not get together and decide if and under what conditions they would confirm and I don't believe that for a minute. Even if they did not believe that this was as f***ed up as it is, they would have covered that base between the three of them. BC's confirmation was their confirmation. They confirmed because once the question was asked, meaning the media already had the story the three of them had no choice but to confirm or just get caught in a big lie. So they confirmed. As for how the meeting got started. I don't believe JH's version for a minute for the reason I stated above. If JH called the meeting with topic to be a broad range of subjects aimed at improving the team not one single player misses that meeting. Only seventeen players attended because the other players did not want to attend a gripe session about V. I do believe that JH covered his ass and AGons ass by some brinksmanship in how he responded to Agons original communication but the intent was player's intent to gripe about V at least in my view. All of that crap from JH and Agons and Pedey today was just that....crap...********. I also think it was all for naught anyway. V is gone at the end of this year and was gone at the end of this year before some NY meeting.

No...I don't think Pedey is over the hill. There is a bigger problem though that sorta' has some relevance. This team is a mess...it is a cellar dweller having worked its way there over the course of the past few years. This problem did not develop overnight in spite of people wanting to think it did and it will not solve overnight unless the Sox take some real chances. There are two ways to go...maybe more than two. - Figure that Buch has made it all the way back and becomes a solid two in a new rotation including Felix, maybe Lackey, maybe Lester and maybe Morales. Forget Cook...that pipe dream will be done and dusted before this season is over. Pull out all the stops to get a legit 1 and with the number of hitters in this lineup (if you keep Ortiz) you might be back in business in the short run. or - Figure that regardless of what the situation is with Buch, you can't resolve the starting pitching in one off season and if you can't resolve that, nothing else will matter. Bringing in a 3 won't get anything done so it does boil down to getting a legit 1 in here as hard as that is to do. So option two is take a longer view on a time line to fixing this mess. Less need to make risky moves....less satisfaction in the short term....more time off the clock for some of Boston's favored sons. Option 1 requires some bold moves in a year when the Sox just don't have many pieces to play with that anybody gives a s*** about. They will eat salary just to move Beckett. No help there. Ortiz is a FA so they sign him or they don't. No trade bait there. Crawford's contract is radioactive and there is no replacement on the near horizon for Agons. Nobody to replace WMB either and WMB won't get you much in return anyway, not by himself or even with him as the center piece of a deal. You just about have to keep Ross and WMB. That leaves a cast of thousands including Sweeney, Nava, Ciriaco, Iggy, Salty, Pods and prospects that you really do not want to mess with cause they are one or two years away from being rookie stars for this team. Haven't mentioned pitchers other than Beckett because the Sox are already pitching poor and I think they want to keep Lester. That does not leave much to choose from if you are trying to build a multiplayer deal to bring in a legit 1 for the rotation in the short term....but then there is Pedey. Option 2, takes a longer view, less risk, probably do not even consider things like trying to build a multiplayer deal around somebody like Pedey but put the solution to this problem out a couple years and then how old is Pedey and what is he doing. Is he on the backside by then? Maybe the way he plays. More importantly, this is a cellar dweller team that won't even finish above 500 for the season and plays so poorly in their own park that they won't even finish above 500 in Fenway. What are we really talking about here....favorite players on a cellar dweller? Nobody and nothing is sacred when you are living in the basement. Pedey is not at all finished in my view nor even on the back nine. However, the Sox have little to play with if they want to solve this in the short term. I would not touch more than one of those prime prospects and in one or two cases I would not touch them for anything..Bradley for example....I would not touch unless you want to give me my 1 for him straight up.....and that 1 cannot be one of these injury goons either....not interested and that won't happen anyway. Take the longer view on solving this mess. OK. What does Pedey look like by 2014 and 2015?

Well since Cherington confirmed...somebody else already told Passan that there was a meeting. If you are confirming you are not the original source.

I have to find the stuff again. Mike Hazen recently had some extensive comments on Iggy and each of the reporters present appear to have focused on different comments Hazen made. It seemed to me that Hazen was in part trying to address the fact that Iggy has clearly improved and offer caution that while Iggy's numbers were better, he thought Iggy had the where-with-all to improve his power numbers. While Hazen appeared to me to acknowledge that Iggy would likely never be more than a contact hitter, it was clear at least when I pieced it together that Hazen wanted to see more power hitting from Iggy...more gappers and I got the impression that until he was doing that, even his current successes were simply insufficient in Hazen's eyes. I am to the point where if it comes down to whether Iggy hits more gappers or not, I want to see him up here and if he starts to hit more line drives in the gaps...fine...if not...I am also fine with that. I just do not want Iggy spending more time in Pawtucket because he is not hitting enough gappers and piecing the comments together I got the distinct impression that Hazen held the view that though Iggy had made progress, at least Hazen would not be satisfied until he saw more line drives in the gaps from Iggy. I really don't think that is likely to be honest and, I am not encouraged by Hazen's comments in that regard. I would have been much happier if Hazen had just acknowledged that Iggy had made significant progress and at least intimated that he had made enough progress for the Sox to be willing to give him a real shot....more than a "bring him up in September" shot. Instead I got the distinct impression that Hazen was trying to tell us that while we uneducated fans might be thinking Iggy is ready to get a real shot up here, Hazen will not think so until he sees more gappers. That sort of comment makes no sense to me. If you are going to acknowledge that the guy is always going to be a contact hitter, then how many gappers do you want to see? Why qualify comments about Iggy's progress at all especially with regard to power hitting unless you were trying to set the stage for seeing Iggy spend even more time in Pawtucket.

The last stuff I read from the Sox on Iggy was that while his hitting has improved, now he must improve his power hitting in order to meet their criteria....just stop for crying out loud....just trade him if they are going to pull this s*** forever. What a totally f***ed up bunch.

I know there are those that disagree but to me there is an incredible similarity between these games and games at the end of last season. All these games now look like a continuation of the same game. Then post game pressers are the same also..."just have to come out tomorrow and try to win". Nothing looks different one game to the next. But, lets face it....doing the same thing each day and expecting a different result is the height of insanity.

Somebody was saying there was a bite on Aviles but the Sox wanted to much for him. Man I don't get that at all. What is special about Aviles.

Buch is next up in the rotation...a game we can win for a change. Lately we end up with a good chance to win 1 out of 5.

This was another pretty bad lost game for the Sox. Starter implodes...pen can't get out of the inning without letting the runners on home. Can't muster more than two runs against pretty modest pitching. At this rate they are going to be deep into the basement by the end of the year. Pedey still playing...most of rest are sleepwalking and have been for awhile now. No matter how much you questioned this team's potential this year you would not have guessed basement. I sure as hell didn't and I did question how far they could go this year.

Errr.....oohhhhh......ouh.........ahhhhhhh....a run

Well as soon as Cook started to get the ball up, 2 runs was no longer enough. V probably would not have pulled Cook if he got out of that inning with a lead or tied. Will be interesting to see what the Sox do from here offensively. Lately every guy coming up once they get down like this is trying to hit the ball out and there are not many doing it.

Bing-bang-bong....5 runs just like that. Watch when we come up.....it will be like we are trying to squeeze 3" diameter runs through a 2" pipe

Cook had tons of time to make that play also. It almost looked like he crossed himself up and short circuited trying to figure if he should throw to Aviles or throw to the bag and ended up doing neither. Cook is one of the few starters I think V has not given any time to out there. If he starts going south V gets him out of there quickly.

I always thought Palmer was pretty intolerable in the booth. As far as Cook goes, there is needing to keep the ball down and unable to be effective if the ball is above the lower half of the knee....Cook seems not to be able to be effective if he hits the top of the knee.

Holy Cow.... was that hittable

Ouch...that was certainly hittable.

That would do it. Have not done any channel surfing. Just turned the game on to see what was what.