wyo-sox

Great jump Dustin!

Emmz, you live by St Paul don't you? Ever go to the Saints games? Was thinking of taking my boys next week. I went once years ago and had a blast. Wondering if they still make it as entertaining as I remember.

Well if this rains out I'll watch my nl team tonight, the Rockies. That's also been a real treat this year.

Yes he is, just needed to give up that early homer so Josh wouldn't feel like he was trying to show him up.

Phew, I thought we might get something going there for a minute.

Real nice at bat Lavs!

No, my superior smartness gives me certain freedoms with the language.

I think for me it's important to break things down into things I know, things I assume based on reason but don't know for sure... and things I'm guessing at. WE KNOW: 1. This current team sucks. 2. This current team has been trending down for several years. 3. Our starting pitching is our biggest problem. 4. This current mix of players is not providing a winning environment. 5. There is not one player that we could loose and not sustain our current record. THINGS I ASSUME: 1. The Sox are far from one or two players from turning it around. 2. There is some sort of chemistry / club house problem 3. Dumping Beckett still means we are paying for him, and we have nobody else to fill in. 4. Putting in another new average pitcher, hoping Lester turns it around, guessing Buch will be dependable, gambling on a young bull pen arm turning into a quality starter..... sounds like to many iff's and maybe's to think it would somehow become a good enough staff to turn things around. Sounds like the approach taken last year. THINGS I ONLY AM GUESSING: 1. Pedroia is a great club house guy... we just don't know. I assume he is... but the whole yelling at the ump, throwing his helmet and dropping an F Bomb may just bug the other players. We don't know. He may be a dick head who does not use deodorant and the guys cant' stand him... we don't know. I know there's unpopular guys that do stuff like Pedroia and we call them babies, claim they are letting the pressure get to them... but when Pedroia throws his helmet and drops an F Bomb we all (myself included) go, "wow, that guy's got heart". 2. As was pointed out earlier by someone else, Pedroia is the type of guy GM's drool over... that makes me guess he would get you good dividends in the trade market. 3. Pedroia will return to hitting like he used to, and has a few more years of all star type player in him / or Pedroia will continue to go on his downward trend and never hit great again. We don't know.

I clearly am smarter than everyone else here. :-)

To jungs defense, Trading Pedroia could change the culture.... not because Pedroia is the problem directly, but because of the message it sends. I guess the common thread jung and I share is that we know we need better pitching, and don't see any other realistic ways of getting it. I have not seen any suggestions for other ways to improve the pitching. I guess I would ask this.... since most of us love Pedroia as a player.. is he worth keeping around to watch him play hard, be competitive, hopefully return to an offensive threat if it means watching him do it on a loosing crappy team? To me it is not. The team needs change, nobody debates that. The team more specifically needs drastic pitching change, nobody debates that.....and Pedroia offers the best chance at getting pitching help. Everyone wants to point out Dustin pays hard as an argument that he should not be traded... but nobody is offering any realistic options to make serious changes to the pitching.

Tell you what, my plane lands in Boston on 8/20/12. Set up a meeting with Cherrington and we'll both pitch our ideas... then punch him in the forehead!

So I think we may be on the same page more than we realize. We both see starting pitching as the primary hole to fill. I just don't see how you fill that hole without moving a very valuable player. Getting rid of Lackey or Beckett will not save the team a dime, as we will have to eat the salary. And nobody is going to give us anything of value in a trade... but we all know it has to be done. So we do that, get ride of one to three of our pitchers... how do we go about getting a Garza or anyone of value knowing the luxury tax is a painful reality for those with the check books? I just don't see adding any valuable pitchers, or prospects, without offering something of value. Trust me, I'd rather keep Pedroia... but we just seem so far off from being even a decent team I don't see value to him on this current team moving forward, even though I think he's a very valuable player.... if that makes any sense.

And SoxfanForsyth... for the record I hope this is not being taken as an argument. I enjoy the discussion and different points of view. I've always enjoyed your perspective and manners in your posts on this board. We just don't see eye to eye on this one, but I understand your opinion and clearly don't see you position as "wrong" or way out there.

I agree 100% it is primarily a pitching problem. But how do we fix that problem going forward for the short and long term? Just saying "get rid of Beckett" fixes nothing!

I guess I've misstated my position. I did not try to insinuate this team is Pedroia's fault. I do not think it is his fault. Overall I think trying to assign blame and fault when solving any problem is a waste. So while I don't think it's his fault.... I don't see any evidence that having him here is helping us win. Without assigning any fault or blame and just trying to honestly access the situation I see a team that is a mess, has no clear direction, can't make the playoffs and is on track to finish under .500 and in sole ownership of the basement in their division. So with that view of the team, and not assigning blame to Pedroia, I ask what is the best way to right the ship. I see a couple of choices... 1. Keep players that we have because they try hard, or put up great numbers. Get rid of sub par under achieving over paid pitchers and replace them with sub par prospects and old has been vetrans that work cheaper, although we eat the salaries of the original pitchers so we don't really save any money. Then we are left with the same offense that will hit 10 home runs in one game and not score any runs for the next three or four games. Essentially we have the same exact team by doing this, maybe worse because now you have bats that are mostly vetrans with a three year tradition of loosing and young unproven pitching. No clear direction. 2. Admit that some of the players are crap, some are great, some we love, some we hate, some are passionate and play hard, some are lazy dicks... and no matter whose fault it is, no matter how great any one player is.... IT AIN'T WORKING! So determine a clear direction (blow it up and rebuild). If that is the best course, who gives you the best return on getting players to rebuild. My guess is that Pedroia gets you the most on the trade market. If I am wrong and I get no great offers, I keep the guy. I honestly don't mind if the Sox are a .500 team. As long as it was headed the right direction. If it was mostly young players growing as a team, having good attitudes and getting better month by month, honestly a .500 team like that would be fun for me to watch. A .500 team with great players that I love like Pedroia frustrates me and I can see it headed in a direction that is not positive.

The heart and sole of a team that can't make the playoffs, and may very well finish under .500. Correct? I love the guy s a fan, but why can't we admit its not helping this team win. This team is obviously a mess. If you could find a better way to over haul things I'm all ears. And if we don't overhaul things in a major way can we agree we will have a crappy sub par team next year?

You have not showed how it has helped this make up of players win games. Facts kinda show the team is not currently winning with him. A great, passionate, gritty player with value...hell yes. Value to this team, don't see it. We are not arguing his passion. I'm looking at the team record and seeing what we are doing is not working, and we need major changes. How else do you make major changes to the team?

I agree 100%, and can you deny it has not helped this current make up of players win games? He's like having a high quality expensive spark plug in a blown up rusted motor.

I guess I do not assume Pedroia is a problem or solution in the club house, none of us really know. But it does seem there is a general '' me over the team mentality''. Trading a guy like Pedroia sends a message that nobody is bigger than the team.

Soxfanforsyth, I can't say you are wrong. I guess we just see it a little different. I think you were spot on in saying to get rid of one of our problem pitchers at best we get a B prospect and eat most if the money..... so the reality is we are giving them away. We know nobody wanted to trade for Beckett recently and I do not see that changing. So I guess I see that we have to give one or two of the pitchers away. That does not help us move forward. That putting your shoes on but not stepping in the right direction yet. You talk about getting killed on a trade with Pedroia or Ells. My position, an d I would guess that of Jungs, is that I don't think you get killed moving these guys. I do think you get really good prospects or make a move for a young ace. So if I did not get decent trade offers my position would change. Lastly you asked why we get rid of core players of value? Exactly, they are the core of something that obviously is not working. Their value to this team has gotten us where we are at. Just because a player is worth lots of money or is playing well should not make one assume he is valuable to your team. If its resulting in your team playing .500 ball and missing the playoffs three straight years, then I say they are valuable players that add no value to the team. Just my uneducated thoughts.

Why? Nobody likes where we are at but wants to hold onto what we got ? I love Pedroia and obviously won't be sad when he comes back next year as a Red Sox player. But you are not going to get major change with minor moves. This will be three years we have nit made the playoffs, and are getting worse by the year. I vote major change. If all we are going to do is ''get rid of Beckett'' then expect the same results we are seeing this year. Getting rid of him does not replace him with a good pitcher.

What's does not make sense is keeping this horse and pony show together. You are right Pedroias trade value is low.... but I bet would still be really good.... and it could get much worse next year (see Youk). I just think there has to be a major change, a major shift. This team does need re focused with a plan. It does not need tweaked, it needs blown up.

Jung I believe we were typing much the same thoughts at the same time, LOL.

Got thinking of this in the game thread forum today, but if its me I trade Pedroia as a means to get an ace and package Lackey or Lester with him to get one of them out of here. Do we all love Pedroia, sure.... just like we all loved Youk and holding on to him to long got us squat. Forget he plays good defense, he screams when he gets out and makes nice one liners on the radio in the off season. You are left with a guy who has been sidelined by injuries over the past three years quite a bit and has not had an exceptional bat the past few years. Everything is a gamble, if he has another injury or another year batting poorly while leading his team to .500, I'm afraid he won't be worth squat to us on the field or on the trade market. Bottom line is I'm confident Sox could be a .500 team without Pedroia... and I think his reputation right now could yield us a true #1 ace or a bunch of prospects. We all talk about blowing things up and sending messages to players and changing the culture, this does it. What say you?