Gom

I love this...Jacko and DipreG arguing over watching the game. f***ing priceless. Wang's sinker had less break later on DipreG. Gamecast won't show you break, just location of pitch. It's like watching Mo's cutter on Gamecast. That pitch 4 inches outside started on the corner. I woudn't expect you to realize that, since you don't watch the game...you GAMECASTZZZ the gamezzz. LOL!

Exactly which sample did you want me to pick? The worst 20? The middle 50? The top 10? If I had picked the top 10, it would be even more skewed in my argument's favor. No matter what I picked, it would be open for critique, unless I went through everyone, which I have no desire to do. What I'm saying is that it is common to have starters work themselves into the rotation from the pen. It usually does not have negative effects like ending careers as Jacko would have you believe. Randy Johnson was an error on my end. He shouldn't have been included. Still, if you eliminate Johnson, does it really change at all my statement "nearly 30%" of all starters worked out their kinks in the pen? No, it does not. Case closed, my friend. ORS, I took the top 20 ACTIVE pitchers in their career when it came to ERA. As usual, you make no sense. If the young pitchers make it on the list, they make it on the list. No matter what, it has been done for so long, and so often, it doesn't matter. My point still stands. Your second point, weaning him into the league, is exactly what I've been saying. Best post you've had in years. So basically you're agreeing with me. He has nothing to prove in AAA, and he should go to the pen. Which leads us to... Ah..DipreG chimes in with two cents, doesn't add anything of value, and comes off feeling smart. The usual.

It was ok for a few innings. I'm more worried about his velocity than I am on the sink at this point. He needs the arm strength. His sinker doesn't have great break, just enough to make it effective at a high speed. He needs that speed, without it, it's a meatball. He was 92-93 all day. Two more MPH and he'll be fine, IMO.

Except that for our respective teams, Ortiz is much more important than Wang.

Wang's velocity is getting up there. I'm hoping two or three starts, and he's back up to his customary 95.

No juice, no love. I love it.

Here is a list of the top 20 active ERA leaders [not counting relievers]. The ones who either started in the pen or spent significant time as a reliever are starred [***]. 1. Pedro Martinez (37) 2.9141 R *** 2. Johan Santana (30) 3.0650 L *** 3. Roy Oswalt (31) 3.1768 R *** 4. John Smoltz (42) 3.2580 R *** 5. Brandon Webb (30) 3.2667 R 6. Randy Johnson (45) 3.2865 L *** 6. Jake Peavy (28) 3.2950 R 8. Roy Halladay (32) 3.4793 R *** 8. Tim Hudson (33) 3.4843 R 10. Carlos Zambrano (28) 3.5031 R *** 11. Tom Glavine (43) 3.5361 L 12. Danny Haren (28) 3.6240 R 13. C.C. Sabathia (28) 3.6470 L 14. Kerry Wood (32) 3.6805 R 15. Ben Sheets (30) 3.7248 R 16. Derek Lowe (36) 3.7392 R *** 17. Mark Buehrle (30) 3.7618 L *** 18. Josh Beckett (29) 3.7959 R 19. Barry Zito (31) 3.8221 L 20. John Lackey (30) 3.8438 R I did not count Wood who went the other way, from starter to reliever. However I did count Smoltz, who went from starter to reliever back to starter. As you can see, out of the top 20 ERA active leaders, 9 of them spent significant time in the bullpen. That's 45%. In fact, out of the top 10, SEVEN started in the pen. 70%!!! This leads me to believe that sending a starter to the pen rather than the minors has no significant negative impact on his progression as a pitcher. In fact, the data shows that they are actually HELPED by staying in the bullpen rather than being sent down to the minors. Hughes should stay in the pen.

Yeszir is right. We can't insult the new people. :thumbsup:

Well, you guys are seeing Papi without the juice. How does it look up in Boston? Yankees win.

Go through the top 20 pitchers pretty much at any time during the last two or three seasons. You'll see that nearly 30% of them spent significant time in the bullpen sometime in their career or started out in the pen. I've shown this before. It's been the way baseball has been done for nearly 100 years. Jacko knows differently though.

Nearly 30% of the top pitchers in baseball started off in the pen, Jacko. Halliday isn't a good example because he proves you wrong. Hughes has a terrible ERA. Let him refine his stuff in the pen against better players, then scrubs in the minors.

Jacko...they were on a innings limit last year with Chamberlain. Not enough to make him a starter, too much to keep him in the pen. They did the best they could with him, and he's probably going back to the pen in September anyways. I am a full believer in putting your best arms at the major league level. I see no reason why pitchers can't prove themselves first in the bullpen. Look at Santana and Halliday. They worked out pretty well moving from the pen to the rotation.

Amen.

I'm really sorry SCM33. My heart goes out to you and your family. I wish you and your family the best and strength in times of need.

You guys are talking about a pitcher who had little arm strength and was coming off a major foot injury. He'll be fine. Jacko...exactly what young arm have the Yankees stifled before?

Maybe they should have sent Pettitte to the pen instead of Hughes.

Don't tell Jacko this. He'll have a f***ing coronary.

Jacko, the first stolen base the runner didn't get a good jump. A good throw would have got him.

This is funny. You actually use ESPN for making stat-related points? Check out this: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/molinjo01-field.shtml According to baseball reference, his CERA was 4.62 with the Yankees, but 13.39 in ESPN. Wait a sec...I'd be willing to forgive your error in not noticing there was a mistake there..if right above it, for Molina's 2007 in LA, in over 300 IPs..his CERA was...ZERO. When he caught, the Angels didn't give up a run. Ever. LOL! A word of advice: Don't use ESPN to make stat-based arguments.

Yet succeeding against inferior talent in the minors while the Yankee bullpen struggles is more important?