a700hitter

No I have not argued the former at all. And yes I disagree that we have a solid core of players to work with. The core that we have in house (except for WMB ) has produced a truly horrible record since the end of August 2011. The current core is also aging at key spots (Ortiz) and under performing to the point of great concern at other spots (Ellsbury and Lester).

If I knew what point you were trying to make, I'd respond.

If the strength of your team is your middle relief, your team sucks. This is a truism of baseball IMO.

Seriously, 11th in Reliever ERA and last in Late and Close situations is not solid at all.

I could live with him as a 4th OFer, but he has no pop at all. Outfielders have to have some pop.

11th in the league in starter's ERA, 11th in Reliever's ERA and the worst Late and Close bullpen --yeah great job. A healthy Bailey would have made all the difference in the world. He should get some votes for executive of the year.

I agree with everything except a couple of items. Sweeney and Nava have no place on the 25 man roster of a winning team. They both stink.

I completely agree with this. Selling off parts is not an indication of competence in evaluating talent or building a team. Thus far, Cherington has demonstrated very little aptitude in evaluating talent.

I agree. I think Papelbon could have kept this ship of fools afloat only for a short period of time. However, in fixing the pitching they need to be fixing the rotation at the same time they are fixing the pen. I don't think they should fix the rotation with a wait and see attitude about the pen. Why bring in quality starters if you are not going to give them support at the end of games?

I agree with you. This is an organization in disarray. There are a lot of holes. IMO opinion, they should fix the pitching first, because that will return the team to competitiveness more quickly. It is not a short term fix, because pitching should always be the foundation. They can attack the other holes incrementally as the opportunities present themselves. There should not be a wait and see attitude on the pitching. They need to aggressively rebuild the pitching. I have little confidence in the ability of this organization with regard to the evaluation of pitching.

Is there a Pedro-like ace in this group? No, there isn't any sort of ace in that group. Lester is at best a #3. Does anyone in this group compare to Manny in his prime? We are a last place quality team right now. If these guys are the core, then we are in trouble. Maybe WMB turns out to be a total stud, but the rest just isn't very good for an elite team.

No, I did not. Look back at the thread. MVP compared the 2001 squad inherited by the FO to the collection of garbage that we have now. That is not even a close comparison. They inherited a very talented roster, far more than the talent currently in the organization. No credit was taken from them for either 2004 or 2007. They have just never built a team from the ground up from a situation like exists today. We don't know how well they will do this. People get all bent out of shape when the truth is stated. We know that this FO can run a great team into the ground. We don't know if they can rebuild a team that is at the bottom of the heap. We will find out. This is a true statement. It pisses people off, but the FO has done a truly terrible job over the last 3+ years and 2012 is the culmination of lots of bad decisions. This didn't happen over night. This is not an aberration as some people viewed September 2011. This is a sick organization.

Whether he is overpaid or not, they will have a very difficult time replacing his consistently excellent performance in that role. They spent money foolishly for years. There are lots of examples of this. When it came time for Papelbon, they decided that a closer wasn't worth the investment. They will be looking for his replacement for years and the end of games will be nightmares for several seasons. Right decision or wrong decision? $107 million on Dice K was clearly a bad decision. Lackey's contract was clearly a bad decision. We'll have to see how Papelbon finishes with the Phillies. He's off to a good start doing what he always did for us. As to the current state of affairs in our pen, people are making a terrible mistake if they think we have the arms inhouse to have a good pen next season. They need to add quality arms for the pen. i'd rather add one quality arm that might cost a few bucks rather than seeking value in lower cost options. Our FO has been a terrible at evaluating pitching talent.

The agenda?

I disagree. I am not denying them credit for the 2007 team. I am just stating the obvious. This ownership has never been presented with the challenge of rebuilding a last place team that loses 90 games. GMs that take teams like that to the post season are candidates to win executive of the year. This challenge is much different than anything they have faced. The talent is very thin. Look at the roster. We stink. I don't know what 2007 has to do with this.

Again, that was not built from the ground up. They had won in 2004, went to the playoffs in 2005, and averaged 94 wins over the prior 4 years, so they hardly built that team from the ground up. They have a challenge now unlike any they have had during their ownership tenure. They need to rebuild a team and organization that is in tatters. It's nothing like 2007.

E-3 walkoff

The Yankees are the luckiest team in sports.

Duke handed over the reigns of a team with Manny, Pedro, Varitek, Lowe, Damon and Trot. That's a nice head start. They don't have anything close to that now. They will have to build this team from the ground up. They have never done that before. As bad a the 2001 team finished, it wasn't anywhere as bad as this team or the he September version of the 2011 team. The 2001 team fell apart when Pedro went down and it came apart at the seams when Kerrigan was handed the reigns.

'd love to ruin Showalter's season, but my hatred for the Yanks is worse because I live in NY.

I hate the Yankees the most, because I live among their fans.

They have no fanbase, and I don't think they can build one in southern Florida.

This ownership got handed a team with Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez and Nomar Garciaparra in their primes, a blossoming Varitek, Lowe and Damon. They got handed a ton of talent, much more than they have today. I stand by my statement. This Ownership and FO has proved that they can run a great team into the ground. They have yet to prove that they can build a great team from the ground up. That's what they need to do now. We'll find out if they can.

We only know one thing for sure about this ownership group--- that they take a great team and run it into the ground. We don't know if they can rebuild a team, because they took the reins of a nearly finished product. We'll just have to see if they have what it takes.