a700hitter

This is the off season thread. I have said over and over that they have done nothing this off season to improve the starting pitching in the short term or the future. They have done less to build the future of our starting pitching than the present. I am assuming they acquired Dempster for the present. I don't think his acquisition will help much. They have done nothing with an eye to the future. As for your assertion that they might have made an offer of Ellsbury for Bauer and other trades, I don't care. Results count. Cleveland got the deal done and got back a nice young arm plus a replacement CFer in Stubbs. We didn't. If they were trying to move Ellsbury, they should have made a more compelling argument, because Ells is a more talented player than Choo. If they questioned his injury-proneness, they should have made the case that he is fully healthy and that those injuries were freak incidents. They should have brought a DVD showing Ells doing his off season training. They didn't get the deal. That's all that matters. We don't know the effort so we can't judge it. There is a possibility that there was no effort. We can only judge results, because we don't know what efforts are being made. Other teams are improving their weaknesses. We have not.

Ortiz has to hit 3rd or 4th. Napoli might hit 4th if Victorino gets dropped tho 6th or 7th.

They have not articulated any such approach, so you are speculating as to their off season plan. Also, they have not made a single move this off season to build the future of this team's starting pitching. If you are going to assert a strategy that has not been articulated by the FO, you should have some evidence to back it up. Doing nothing is not a strategy for the future when your organization is thin on starting pitching talent at all levels.

We were discussing what they did this off season. The purge was in August. They have done nothing developmental this off season. Their strategy has not been cohesive. Which of their moves this off season will build the starting pitching for the future? I am not seeing any. If the DBacks liked Choo for Bauer, maybe we could have explored that deal for Ells.

You obviously did not read my entire post, or you didn't understand it, or you chose to answer what you want to think I said.

When did results stop mattering?

If Ellsbury shows that he has regained his pwer stroke in Spring Training, I think the top 4 could be Victorino, Pedroia, Ells and Ortiz. If Ells power stroke is not there, Victorino might get dropped to 6th or 7th spot.

If the FA pool is thin, then trades should have been explored. If they wanted to be competitive now, they should have traded for established pitchers. If they are planning for the future, they should have traded for pitching prospects like Bauer. They have done neither. Great pitching is not going to show up at Fenway by itself and bit Cherries on the ass and say here we are. Sitting and doing nothing about the starting pitching this off season will not improve us in the short term or the long term.

What "development approach"? They haven't acquired any young talent this offseason. They have signed an aging CF and a catcher/1B with a bad hip for big bucks. They signed a mediocre starter with little track record of success in the AL for big bucks. They have managed to pump up their payroll to $170 million. They signed a closer in his walk year. They have not traded Ellsbury for young talent even though Ellsbury is in his walk year and they are expected to let him walk. I have not seen any building with younger players or acquiring top prospects. I see little evidence of a cohesive strategy. This is not a win it now approach, because they have ignored the starting pitching need. It's not building for the future, because they have done none of that this off season. Whichever way they are going, it looks like the execution of the strategy has been poor.

It doesn't change the fact that thus far they really made little attempt to fix the starting pitching for the upcoming season. They have not articulated their reasons for this approach, but they are on record several times (even before acquiring Dempster) saying that their starting pitching is improved over last year. I am not in agreement with that.

I don't think it will be easy to figure out the optimal lineup with Victorino and Ellsbury.

What year did they finish last with a $170 million payroll? When is the last time that they finished last?

I read your whole post twice, and I have to admit that I can't find a coherent point in the entire post. Are you seriously comparing our FO to that of the Giants which have won championships in 2 of the last 3 seasons? I think we'd be basking in glory if we were in their position, and we wouldn't have any expectations for the off season. The Giants did the one key thing that they needed to do over the last couple of years. They kept their exceptional starting pitching intact. They extended Matt Cain and didn't let him get to Free Agency. They resisted the suggestions that they should trade a CY Young pitcher like Lincecum. They are sitting pretty. If I were a fan of theirs, I'd be giddy with happiness.

In this recent exchange between SBF and UN, UN lobbed the first personal attack telling Fred that he was blabbering. I am sorry but UN doesn't get to operate with impunity. If he makes it personal, he should expect return fire. Why don't you ever call out UN? Be fair about it if you are going to call out people. UN is constantly offending people without provocation, but you let him off the hook because you like his targets. Lay off Fred unless you are willing to go after UN too.

As every off season comes to a close, people start making excuses for the FO. You start reading things like: the market was too high, no one was available, it a b ridge year etc., etc. I think people just are tryting to avoid the reality that the team isn't good enough to be a serious competitor and they want to start the season with hope. Even Fred has been susceptible to this false hope as he has said numerous time that he likes the moves made this off season and that he thinks the team will be improved. The reality is that the FO has made a very weak effort at improving the starting pitching which is our biggest need They are rolling the dice that last year's crew will improve. I think that is a bad strategy.

Not me. I'll insult the intelligence of our FO before they make any moves. I won't limit that criticism to our FO. There aren't a lot of intellectual giants in any FO. That being said, you don't need geniuses to make good baseball moves. Unfortunately, the FO people are the ones accountable for building the roster. If a move doesn't work out, they are the ones accountable. It doesn't matter how many fans agreed with the move. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the buck stops with the FO.

Crickets chirping.

The actual results are the only ones that count. Duh. That's what you get judged on. You don't get judged on "what ifs".

It doesn't matter how things looked at the time. You get judged on results. Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell didn't look bad at the time either, because Bagwell had showed little pop and was blocked in the Red Sox organization. We know the result. It can't be defended because of how it looked at the time.

This is completely incoherent gibberish, but I am sure that you know what you meant.

Name one ownership that spent as much money as the Red Sox over the last 3 years with a result of driving the team into last place.

They have had a competitive team for the last 5 years. They have been able to achieve that. They still need to build a fan base. Winning and being competitive hasn't done it. IMO their biggest hurdle is getting fostering an emotional bond to the team. They will not do that unless they have some generational heros associated with the team. They are keeping Longo. That is a good move. Getting a stud like Mike Stanton to let him go in a couple of years would not help their franchise IMO. If they get him, I think they will keep him and build around him.

It's quite a commute from where you live. How often do you get to Fenway?

I love Fenway, but it is not a very comfortable place to watch a game and the thousands of obstructed views is very frustrating. Warts and all, I still get a thrill every time I enter the place after all these 45+ years. I don't know if I could ever feel the same way about a new ballpark. That's just sentimentality on my part. I miss City of Palms Park in Ft. Myers, and I had gone there for only 8 years and the new park is beautiful ( although the seats are as small as they are at Fenway).

The fact that he didn't regain his velocity after 3 months of pitching in short relief and any semblance of command was lost leads me to think that there is something structurally wrong.