seabeachfred

Oh there we go with that bandwagon s*** again. Stuff it User; if you don't think I'm a rabid and ardent Red Sox fan you're the stupid one. And where did you pick that crap up from? Not from anyone who knows me, that's a certainty. I also encourage you to do exactly that......put Elk and me on ignore. We don't like talking to morons either.

Totally!!!!!

iortiz, you don't trade a player like Ellsbury for some third rate pitcher; in fact, I would be reluctant to trade him at all. But...if we do we need a Hanson for him or part of a trade for King Felix, not a No. 3 or some hot flashing rookie. As you said untouchable for untouchable.

iortiz, I guess pessimism is supposed to be out this off season so let's just call ourselves doubting thomases. I've said similar things only to be told by Example and User that I'm too close to the cliff. I do give kuddos those posters who have kept the optimistic fires going in light of our historic and miserable collapse, but there are many of us who were traumatized by the way the team just went into the tank in September. You can point all kinds of fingers in all sorts of directions but if anything at all, it showed that we were a flawed team. I said earlier that Cherington has got to be creative this winter because we simply cannot take the same team into battle in 2012. To me the pieces didn't fit and the team chemistry seemed non existent by the end of the season.

Tell you what Ex, let's wait until all the work is done this off season before I answer that question. Your point is that we have a lot of talent; no argument there. My question is does the team have the proper chemistry to function as a champion contender. The collapse in September came because of a number of reasons but I saw no leadership from anyone trying to staunch the bleeding. Will such a debacle happen again? No, it shouldn't, but unlike you I think the team has to unload some of the players who have outlived their usefulness and bring in some fresh blood in the form of a solid No. 3 or 4 starting pitcher, two relievers who won't start fires but put them out, and, damn it, a RH hitting outfielder with some sock. I've repeated that over and over. As an aside, do you really think Henry is going to open up his billfold this winter? That I doubt.

Don't understand the question Boomer but I'll let your decide.

Jung, don't you think that for a team that plays half its games at Fenway Park our overload of left hand hitters in our lineup is a little over the top? There are a lof of good pitchers in the AL East and the American League in general and it would seem to be to have this kind of lineup is putting us at a distinct disadvantage. We need at least one more RH hitter in our lineup next year and if I had my druthers we'd have two. I hope the FO is thinking along these lines.

I don't consider myself a bigger or better Red Sox fan that you or anyone else; I just take their defeats a lot harder. Keep in mind that I have not followed the Red Sox as long as you and some of my other colleagues on this board. I came on in August of 2000, a semi- johnny come lately if you will. As you might know though, converts to any cause have a strong tendency to act a little more rabid and teeter near the cliff. I am a true believer who welcomed the opportunity to finally find a team to love again after my then beloved Brooklyn Dodgers left Brooklyn after the '57 season. I went 43 years going from this team to that team and not feeling much of anything for any of them until I found the Red Sox. If I stand convicted of anything it is how long it took until I realized the Red Sox were the team for me. Truth be told I often kick myself for wasting all those years wandering in the wilderness, but, yes, I'm extreme and we old war horses have a tendency to be just that.

With all due respect for what Big Papi has meant to the team, it is high time for him to take his wares somewhere else and all of RSN bid him a fond adieu. He has been acting more like a spoiled diva than a team leader and it is also high time to turn the leadership of the team over to Pedroia and whoever else of the new crowd is willing to share that load with Dustin. Ortiz, Wakefield and Varitek need to be shown the door and the money saved not signing them used to either sign a FA pitcher or saved for 2013 when a whole slew of FA pitchers hit the market. Besides, we should be concentrating on pitching. We have no one ready in the minors ready to step up unless Renaudo suddenly blasts through the cracks next Spring. That means resign Papelbon, get two good relief pitchers, a RH hitting outfielder, and a decent No. 4 starting pitcher. Sorry my friends, I know it is getting repetitious reading me saying the same things over and over again but from where I sit out needs are staring me right in the face and I wonder if the front office can see that or have blinders on.

Personally I think the first move(s) Cherington should undertake is to give Wakefield and Varitek their walking papers. They are through--and all their continued presence does is hold up the development of a younger player with talent (Lavarnway), or prevent us from just going out and making a trade for a solid pitcher. Why it's taking so long to name a manager is puzzling. The front office knows it cannot hire another Francona type. Due diligence is fine and dandy but dallying by the wayside is not. I also think it would be unwise to make personnel changes before a manager is picked. A new manager inheriting players he might not want is almost a sure recipe for a future loaded with trouble. Just my opinion.

At the risk of myfriend MVP worrying about me stepping back from the ledge, I'm beginning to think you are not only right but that Cherington is a procrastinator who simply cannot make up his mind. Compensation for Epstein? Ridiculous!!! As soon as we gave the Cubs permission to talk to Theo without some kind of return in place the game was lost. Time to move on from there and learn from that mistake. A No. 4 starter is an absolute necessity unless we want to be the battered Tim Wakefield back out there getting lit up like a Christmas tree. That, a RH hitting outfielder and two decent relievers along with resigning Papelbon or getting another solid closer---those are the items we need badly. In baseball it all starts with starting pitching and maybe if we all pray in unison Beckett, Lester and Buchholz can stay healthy a whole season and give us a solid "Big Three".

No doubt Cherington is going to have to be creative in order to get the team up to par for 2012, but he better be aware of one salient thing. Bringing back the same old ensemble of 2011 simply will not cut it. The question is would Henry be satisfied to be mired in the muck of no playoffs for the third year in a row? Frankly, I'm beginning to think he has lost interest in the team, or thinks the fans shold be satisfield with 2004 and 2007 and just shut up and support the team. Wrong on the latter John and if you have lost interest t urn it over to Lucchino and let's see him handle the load---provided, of course,that you do put up a modicum amount of cash for some new blood. Good health and comebacks along with some smart signings and a key trade or two could net us the means to make a serious run next season. My question is this: IS THERE A SERIOUS WILL TO WIN THAT EXISTS IN THE FRONT OFFICE or not?????

User---You seem very reluctant to accept an opinion that differs from yours, but what's worse you seem to take delight in castigating those differing opinions. You have to learn to agree to disagree. I personally have stayed out of this debate, but not you or anyone else is going to convince me that J.D. Drew was a top notch player for us because in my opinion he was not. He seemed to be a fragile sort who simply would not play when there was the slightest thing wrong with him. He did not drive in many runs, never even hit 290 in any of the five years he played for us and I don't think he ever hit 25 or more home runs. As I write this I think you should be aware that I was a J.D. fan. I think he had a sweet swing and when he went on a t ear he could help carry the team, but it seemed to me every time he got on one of those runs he would come up with some kind of ailment and all that momentum would be lost. I saw that for five seasons and if I were to grade him it would be an effort to give him a C+

I'll stop it when I see some signatures on paper. Sure, "the FO is looking into Carlos Beltran and will contact his agent soon." What the hell does that really mean User? Looking into something? Contact his agent soon? Come on, while we're doing this other teams are doing it too since Beltran is one of the most coveted FA on the radar. Ok, I'll give you that they have already contacted the agent for Buehrle who they have a boner for. But you can have the biggest boner around and come up empty if the other side isn't up for it. Besides, from all reports the lefty wants to return to Chicago and with Scott Boras representing Beltran are you really serious that we have much of a chance with him, especially since the word is out that we aren't going to be big spenders this winter. Or have you heard something to the contrary?

User Name---No offense intended; perhaps the eternal optimists would have been name for that group. Hell, I just got back on this board a month ago and I still am feeling my way through trying to size up who is who. And who the entitlement people you're talking about I don't know either. Thanks, though, for the heads-up U.N.

SoxSpot brought up a good point...OTHER TEAMS ARE ALREADY WHEELING AND DEALING while we're in a stationary mode----in other words, call me impatient or not, we haven't done a damn thing except for picking up Scoot's option. I would have thought with the memory or our miserable collapse in September and our conspicuous absence in the post-season that the front office would have acted a little more urgency. That they have not. OK, someone called my out and said we have to really be careful and pick the right guy to manage the Red Sox. Of course, but the way we operated the past few years we could go to Christmas and still pick the wrong guy. In the meantime other teams are wheeling while our feet are nailed to the floor.

The problem with the sugar coaters and the rest of us is that we have to avoid making it personal. If only all of us understand that we are Red Sox fans first and foremost, then I think mutual respect will follow. Other boards have been crushed by these kinds of arguments. Frankly, I would like to put this season behind and way back in my rear view mirror but until I see some action and have something to cheer me up this sour taste of 2011 will most likely stick with me as well as those you mentioned in your post. I happen to know Pumpsie personally and we are good friends. You can bet your last dime that he is in a lather over what happened this season. Soon as Cherington starts making moves we can see for ourselves if those are the moves that will make us all smile next season.

iortiz, you said it all in much less time that I did, but like 700 and I, I'll wager that you didn't enjoy posting that any more than we did ours. The season made us all feel rotten, especially when you consider how optimistic and buoyed up we were going into Spring Training. If ever there was an under achieving team, the 2011 Red Sox were it.

Agreed Jung---if the Red Sox brass are smart and make the right moves this fall and winter there could be a pleasant revival next season. No, they cannot afford to be stupid again; they must be smart. It is going to be the 100th Anniversary of Fenway Park and as I mentioned to Example in a previous post, for that reason alone we ought to be feel optimisitic that the right moves will be made. I just want to hold up my enthusiasm until I see it. As with you and others, this season was very hard for us and for any Red Sox fan to take.

Ex---just so you can understand where I'm coming from let's look at the season before it began. Just about every writer, every publication, every TV pundit either had us winning the WS or getting into it. Almost everyone predicted we would win the AL East. We accomplsihed none of those things, and, in fact, we had the worst record in baseball that last month of the season. The club was in turmoil, the manager had lost control of his team, and we blew a nine game lead in the WC chase the last few weeks. To me that was DISASTROUS!!!!!!!!!! We were in first place on September 1 and by the end of the month we had played our way out of the Playoffs while beer drinking, chicken eating, managerial blunders, and lazy and uninspired play let the fans down and pissed many of us off. To me that was MISERABLE!!!! You ask what adjectives I'd use if we finished in fourth place with a 500 record. There are many I could use but let's settle on putrid and pathetic. There is no "woe is us" attitude here; I'm just stating the facts and you would have a good deal of trouble putting lipstick on that pig of a post I've written. You want positive??? Well maybe if you're an optimist we could believe that better days are ahead, and that's what we all want to badly believe, but some of us have begun to doubt just how committed Henry and Co. are dedicated to winning titles and whether making money and spreading the Red Sox money making machine is more important to them. That we will see in the coming months when they pick a new manager and retool the team for the 100th Anniversary of Fenway Park. That alone should make us optimistic and believe they want to make that anniversary something special. The 2011 season wouldn't be it. As for individual awards, that's fine and good....UP TO A POINT. Sorry Ex, but to me there is only one bottom line and that's WINNING!!!!!! And we didn't do that this season and the end didn't even come close.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

This year's disastrous season was further aided by the ineptness of Francona in the dugout. He was never a good field manager and, in fact, he was a pretty weak strategist that some people thought he actually cost us between eight and ten games a year. Whether you buy into that or not the fact was he wasnot a good field skipper. When stories started erupting that there was beer drinking in the clubhouse during games and that players were sending out for fried chicken as well, you wonder you was running what was becoming an asylum. Surely we can get a manager who can control things like that and also one that is more adept in game to games situations. I was astounded how Joe Maddon kept outsmarting Francona game after game. We can do better in that regard; that I'm sure of.

From all the baseball announcers I heard over the years I believe Vin Scully is not only the best today but is the greatest of all time. However, we are talking about our favorite and to me that goes back to my young days in Queens. Red Barber is my all time favorite; he was the Brooklyn Dodgers No. 1 announcer until he left the team after the 1953 season. I cut my teeth as a kid listening to that man on the radio in the late 40's and early 50's when I switched to TV. Perhaps it's because of my animus towards the Dodgers today; never forgave them when they left Brooklyn, but I cannot identify with Scully except to reluctantly admit he is the best. Perhaps it's also a prejudice as well in that I enjoy listening to Don Orsillo and Jerry Remy on my computer during Red Sox home games on MLB. I find them entertaining and am amazed how well they work together.