example1

Again, if the Angels don't give us exactly what we want then we should keep Manny. It isn't crazy in my mind to get Glaus AND Ervin Santana, even though that won't happen it is far from unfair. The angels would be getting a guarenteed 900 run offense. If they have even decent pitching (which they will) it is a free trip to the playoffs. It is very hard to buy such things. They won't be regretting giving up Santana when they're hoisting the WS Trophy next fall, and perhaps the fall after that.

I'm fine with keeping Tony G. Whatever. Isn't it kind of dumb though to keep a mediocre catcher simply to keep a mediocre pitcher? I know, I know, wakefield was the sox best pitcher last year, yada yada, but he's basically another version of wells and none of us would probably say wells is worth taking up 2 roster spots for. I'm not saying get rid of wakefield, but the sox should not have to give a roster spot to his own catcher. It would have been a tough call if PEDRO had his own catcher, with Wakefield it shouldn't be much of a concern if shoppach is ready to step in and give it a shot.

Here is a fairly lengthy interview with Josh Beckett: http://cbs4boston.com/local/local_story_339222728.html

Perhaps because Loretta has a career AVG that is .301 (vs. .268), an OBP that is .365 (vs. .336) and a SLG that is .408 (vs. 394). He's a better hitter. Tony G's time in BOS was just about the best offensive period he has had as a pro.

Thus creating one more thorn in the side of the Sox. Halliday, Burnett, Chacin, Lilly (still in TOR?).. those four are pretty darn good. The Jays are as close to the opposite of Baltimore I can imagine. Jays: Great pitching and very solid defense; no bats. Baltimore: Great bats, equal with some of the best in the league; no pitching whatsoever. They just lost their best pitcher. In both cases I hate it that we have to play the Jays and Birds so much.

Ellisbury should end up being a very good player. He's slightly cocky, very fast, a good fielder with a good OBP. He's also a natural leader in a natural leader's position. While I believe he will start at Wilmington (A), I imagine he'll be at AA by the end of the year. I'm sure the sox are thinking about a Damon deal for 7 years or whatever and just cringing. From what I could gather from paying attention to Oregon State this year (I live in Portland, Oregon), he was a great player in college; not as great as Pedroia at ASU was but overall he was seen as an excellent tools guy. Get's on base, makes things happen. I think the Damon comparisons are valid. He could end up being better than Damon, who knows.

I went and looked for the philly newspaper quotes in the other threads and didn't find any. I found people affirming the potential Manny for Abreu deal, and complaining that Abreu and Burrell would be more fair. I didn't see anyone quoting anything about Burrell. In any case, this article states that there are reports that Manny would reject a trade to Philadelphia: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/baseball/13306575.htm Everyone knows Manny would reject trades. He may get so frustrated in not getting traded that he would choose to go to Tampa Bay or Milwaukee, but don't bet on it. It makes no sense for Philly to trade Abreu and Burrell for Manny. None. They would be trading a combined 56 HR and 219 RBI last year for Manny, who costs more, only plays one position (rather than 2), and takes up payroll.

Who said anything about Abreu and Burrell for Manny? I got the impression that a) the Phillies weren't interested in a straight up Manny for Abreu deal, and would therefore seem less likely to like Manny for Abreu and Burrell. Manny would refuse a trade to Philly. About Soriano, I hate his OBP and I hate his defense at 2B. I like his speed and his power. There are two reasons/scenarios that would encourage me to make this deal. 1) if we can trade Clement and Nixon to Philly for Abreu, and: 2) if we can trade Wells and Mirabelli to San Diego for Otsuka and Loretta. Then Soriano wouldn't be needed to replace Manny, a combination of he and Abreu would have to replace manny. Loretta would be an upgrade at 2B for a year and Pedroia would back up. There are always injuries too. That would give us an infield of Lowell-Renteria -Loretta-Youkilis, OF of Soriano, Damon (hopefully) and Abreu. Tek behind the plate, with a pitching staff including Foulke, Timlin, Mota, Hanson (eventually), Delcarmen, Otsuka and Dinardo. Those guys would be a solid relief corps behind Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, Wakefield, and Arroyo (I think Lester will be up for a spot-start early in the season, then appear regularly by June). That's a solid, solid team I think. I know its kind of a long shot (I doubt philly will part with Abreu... they're not the marlins for crying out loud), but it isn't beyond possibility.

Agreed yag. Mirabelli is good trade bait. He is a starting catcher currently in a backup role, a veteran, he had a good season two years ago. We shouldn't be too attached to a catcher whose main claim to fame #4 or #5 pitcher. I don't think Wake will be around longer than another year or two anyway. Shoppach and Varitek should be plenty to get the job done, and if we can pull Loretta and Otsuka for Mirabelli and Wells that's a good deal for both teams. I like how we tend to send players back and forth with San Diego. The sox seem to have a good relationship with them (Lucchino and Epstein were initially in SD right?).

Except that every time Arroyo's turn comes up I will be wishing Beckett were starting instead.

Yes, I believe he did. If he didn't then someone else in the organization did. I would think that the only way to make this work is to make it VERY PUBLIC that you are trying to trade Manny. Make it transparent, so Manny can see that they are trying their best. He deserves the right for the sox to LOOK for a trade, but he is rational enough to know that if the D-Rays are the only team offering, and they're offering Casey Fossum, the trade isn't going to happen. If manny knows the sox are trying to trade him then if they are unable to do so perhaps he will actually show up for spring training. If he refuses to show up at ST then his stock may drop among a number of teams, wondering what would happen if they signed him and he decided he didn't like playing there. Its a risk he would have to calculate.

Screw that. I think the sox should get whomever they want for Manny, if the Angels aren't willing to trade the PROSPECT that we want (let alone the proven MLB superstar) then to hell with them. I will just take my Manny and go home then! :harhar:

Send Cinci Arroyo and Abe Alvarez plus some cash for Casey. We should lock Casey up for a few years and keep him at first. We would have a mature solid infield that way.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/03/ramirez_wells_bring_interest/ According to this article, Mark Loretta would likely be part of a Wells to SD deal, as would Mirabelli: SD Gets Wells and Mirabelli BOS Gets Loretta and Otsuka or Williams This would be fine with me, except I worry about Wakefield without Mirabelli. Can Shoppach just step in? He's supposedly very good defensively. If so I would be happy to get Loretta. Tex gets Manny Sox get Soriano? I'm not so sure about this one. Perhaps if the Sox got another player and/or a good prospect or two it would be worth doing to get away from all this manny talk. I don't necessarily like Soriano in LF, and I don't like him as a cleanup hitter. I do like him as a 2 hitter, or a 6/7 hitter. I want to see Pedroia ASAP, so they shouldn't burden themselves with a long term Soriano deal as a 2nd baseman. I like this deal a lot more if we somehow work a deal with Phi/Bal for Abreu. That would be a nice upgrade all around. Say... Clement and Nixon. (mentioned in another thread). Sox lineup would be something like CF-Damon (hopefully) SS-Renteria DH-Ortiz RF-Abreu C -Varitek LF-Soriano 3B-Lowell 1B-Youkilis 2B-Graff/Pedroia That looks pretty good to me. I imagine that's the type of double deal they will be looking for. If we can't keep Manny we should get a few very good players, perhaps by giving up a little more than Manny. This year's hotstove is pretty crazy. There are players flying all over the place.

But for some reason one Cubs prospects page ranked him 40th in the system. They gave him up for very little. I'm sure there's something we don't know.

Would the O's rather have Abreu or Manny? I'm always keeping my eyes out for teams getting a good player to trade for a good player (Abreu for Manny? Delgado for Manny? Wagner for Manny?).

If Foulke can come back and be effective then there is no reason he can't still be the three-inning superstar that he was two years ago. What happened last year was not about getting older or tired, it was about somehow losing his "stuff". He threw the same way, he studied video after video, he kept throwing the same pitches, but somehow people were hitting him. He didn't fool anyone with anything. Personally, I think he was tipping his pitches (or teams had figured out how to tell the difference between his 2 pitches). Teams were just sitting on both pitches. So I'm not sure what the fix is. I don't think Foulke was on the 'roids (although a friend of mine has credible sources telling him Foulke likes to dabble in the cocaine and that the Sox brass and players knew about it). Ultimately I think Foulke imploded because teams figured out how to hit him (perhaps because everyone saw him so much in 04) and because he lost his composure because of the oft-cited but poorly explained "personal reasons". I think his injuries were minor things that the team found when examining the physical reasons for his decline, but the harsh manner with which the sox dismissed him to minor leagues and sports clinics makes me think they felt that he owed them a lot and could treat him like s***. If foulke worked out the personal stuff (I believe there was a divorce as well) and is able to figure out why he got hit so hard, then he will probably do pretty well. He seriously could not do ANY WORSE next year. It is seemingly impossible.

Abreu runs 13 million. That's too steep for a streaky hitter. He has some great numbers (6 of his last 8 seasons over .900 OPS), but not like Manny. I'm beginning to think that, realistically, we are probably going to still have Manny when spring training starts. I'm not convinced that he'll be playing in spring training (or at all, ever) but I just don't think teams want to give up anything close to the type of talent that the sox will (and SHOULD) demand. I mean think about it: we're asking for a superstar or multiple low-risk potential superstars from the minor leagues. Most of the teams that have talent that can even equal Manny would be giving away virtually their entire team to get him (Kazmir, crawford and Huff for Manny anyone?). Manny and the Sox are both screwed if this is the case. I don't hold it against either party for wanting a trade, but I also don't blame the sox if it doesn't get done. They can't just lose a 20 million dollar investment.

He IS only 20 years old. He hit .337 at AA Birmingham last year. When Carlos Beltran was 20 he was at single-A Wilmington. He played in 120 games and had 419 at bats. He hit .229 with an OBP of .311 and a SLG of .363. He hit 11 HR and knocked in 46 with 17 SBs. I don't necessarily like the idea of Milledge for Manny. I've said before I don't want to lose Manny. But Milledge is every bit the prospect that Hanley Ramirez or Anibel Sanchez were. Its Heilman I don't have any interest in, personally.

So, back to the sox conversation... I don't think there's much good speculating on potential trades toooo much. It is a fun thing to do, but it is nearly impossible to know what other teams are thinking, or the types of trades that are likely to go down. I hear the rumors, and speculate about those but just thinking about great potential trades: Manny Schilling and Beckett Vlad K-Rod Colon and Molina doesn't really do anyone any good. Cabrera and D-Train for Manny and Papelbon? From a team that's trying to dump salary unlike any team since, well, the Marlins in the 90's? I don't think so. And why even throw Papelbon and D-Train in there? They are both very highly prized pitchers for both teams, both young. The teams wouldn't just randomly throw them in. They each fill each other's hole in the rotation with (seeing how Paps does this year) the same amount of success. Anyway, it sucks that Manny wants to leave. It totally and utterly sucks.

We are not getting Wright. I have no interest whatsoever in Heilman. None. it seems like he projects as a #3 starter at best, he's already 27 and hasn't dominated ANYTHING. Cliff Floyd is decent, as a #5 or Six hitter. who hits 4th. Until that's clearly answered I'm not letting Manny go. I would take Beltran or Delgado from the Mets, and Milledge sounds pretty good, but (as I've said in another thread) it is like willingly trading Hank Aaron or Yaz during his prime (if, indeed, .293 45 144 still counts as one's prime... I'm pretty sure it does). There is little chance that history will look back and care more about the person who was traded FOR manny. It will be another turn in the history of one of the greatest hitters ever. Perhaps Milledge will be a good, competent, solid professional baseball player. Maybe he'll even be as good and famous as Beltran or Andruw Jones. I'm not just being nostalgic, but in all seriousness Manny will go down as a considerably better player than Jones or Beltran, despite their defensive prowess and competent batwork. I'm very, very skeptical about any Manny trade and hate the situation the Sox are in. If he would just stay they would have another tremendous team. Instead we're scrambling to try to trade someone who is guaranteed to not give us an equal return. Damn!

A few questions about these proposals. What do we need Odalis Perez for? Papelbon, Schilling, Beckett, CLement, Arroyo, Wakefield... Who replaces manny's bat in both of these trades? Cliff Floyd? Jeff Kent? I'm not interested in any trade that doesn't give us a current major league power hitter. If he's not the caliber of Manny (or, not close to that caliber like, say, Delgado or Konerko) then I also expect a top prospect, a "franchise player" potential prospect. The Mets or the Dodgers or the Angels are getting THE WORLD when they get manny ramirez. He is a hall of famer, one of the best hitters of his generation. Manny has averaged .85 RBI a game his entire career. Now, I know that RBIs are not the best way of measuring a player's value. However, it IS true that the greatest hitters of all time had lots of RBI's. You can only get lots of RBI's by being a great hitter, so the two aren't totally unrelated. Anyway, just for fun: Hank Aaron (all time RBI leader): .70 RBI/G Babe Ruth: .88 RBI/G Lou Gherig: .92 RBI/G Eddy Murray: .63 RBI/G Barry Bonds: .68 RBI/G If Manny plays in as many games as Bonds has, he will have passed Hank Aaron by 23 RBI's. Aaron would have played in 568 more games!! I don't trade this guy lightly.

Jesus guapo, mentioning the prospect of trading Manny, Lester and Papelbon (even in jest) almost made my heart stop!! I totally agree with everything you guys are saying. Wright is a MUST, and he should come WITH milledge. Two great prospects for a HOF OF. I don't care if Wright IS only 22 and has done what he's done, chances are he will never be as good as manny currently is. Milledge, the same goes for you bud. I have faith that manny won't be such an ass as to refuse to play for the sox if they do everything they can in good faith to trade him without selling the farm. They paid 20 million a year, he agreed to the contract. If they are going to trade him before his contract is expired, they have every right to get their money's worth in any trade. They have the right to choose who he goes to and what they get in return (at least what they get in return). Manny MUST understand why he's such a difficult player to trade. His salary, his lack of defense, his lack of hustle, and, did I mention the salary? He should not screw over a team that has paid him 20 million a year, fallen for every request he has had and who's fans love him. He's not that big of an ass. Given that, don't trade him unless you absolutely know you're getting a good deal. Sox fans are mature and inciteful enough to be okay with getting good prospects, but only one prospect or getting players who aren't even their team's best prospects is out of the question.

by my logic, this makes youk the odd man in. If we were looking for a bat we would choose a Thome or Delgado or Konerko over a converted 3rd baseman who doesn't hit for tons of power. I see Youk as a big improvement at 1st defensively, and figuring we don't get Olerud or Snow or Mientciewitz or Erstadt, that may be how the sox look at it too. He's pretty balanced, overall.

Screw Torii Hunter for Youk and a few other players. We should be able to keep Youk and trade proven major leaguers. Send Cora and Arroyo. . Those of you nay-saying Youkilis are missing some key points. The most important is that the guy is a lock to have a good OBP. He just understands the strikezone as well-if not better--than most other sox players do. He always has. He also hasn't played much. Why not give him a shot? He is a good player defensively too, although he's been pretty underrated. Lowell makes it harder to play the position he's most valuable at (3b), which is unfortunate. Especially given that we will need a power hitter and that's a good spot for a 1b man. We'll have to wait and see, but I say hold onto Youkilis.