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Would you feel that way if they win the WS next year? I sure wouldn't, even if Marte goes on to be Scott Rolen. They need particular pieces to be competative (or more than competative) for the next few years, and IMO crisp looks more like one of those pieces than Marte. We have 3Bmen, Lowell and Youkilis. We lack OFers. Adam stern was going to start! Gabe Kaplar is some people's savior!?!?? Crisp fits with the Sox current plans more than marte does. With Marte it will be 2-3 years at least until he's carrying a team on his shoulders. We have guys who carry the team on their shoulders. I believe we have 7 (count 'em, 7) draft picks in the top 100 or so next year, after our 6 from last year. Our future is NOT shot by any stretch of the imagination, and the lull between now and then should be minimized because we traded Renteria and ultimately got back Crisp + ??. I'm still intersted in knowing who ?? is too. Hopefully a good young pitcher.

If that's the ESPN scouting report its is the one from 2004, and does not include any comment or consideration of his 2005 season. I also imagine that a PECOTA evaluation or other types of projection systems really like what they see in Crisp. For his age, he has produced consistently and admirably over the past few years. If nothing else I think he could end up being as valuable to the Sox as trot nixon has been over the past 6 years; perhaps in different ways but valuable nonetheless.

At least they are 'wondering why' instead of just assuming that this is the case. Until the deal is finalized I think it is silly to assume we know all the parts.

How clear does this have to be? The red sox never had the opportunity to trade Mota for Michaels. THEY ARE NOT STUPID! If they could hold onto their top prospect and a top 10 prospect in the league, THEY WOULD! Geez, look a little deeper at what must be going on here. Do you truly think that the Sox FO didn't spend much time thinking about this? Do you think they didn't notice that Michaels has 'x' fielding ratings, or 'x' OBP, or 'x' other attributes? Of course they probably spent hours doing it along lines that some of us would never even imagine existed. They are not stupid enough to trade Marte for no good reason.

I would think the ball park would have considerable factor in a player's defense, but that's just me. Doesn't the amount of available space for one to catch fly-balls in have an impact on the number and type of flyballs that one catches? But I digress... I appreciate your passion Ksushi, but I'll raise it with a dose of Coco Crisp. This guy is, apparently, going to be our starting CF next year and likely on the team for the next 3 seasons or so (though the Sox FO gets creative sometimes). It seems like regardless of our like or dislike of this deal that seems to be the most blatent fact here. For whatever their reasons, the Sox FO would rather have Crisp than Michaels. Perhaps they have considerably different contracts, or there is some split that the Sox FO is concerned about with Michaels. Perhaps Philly wants a particular minor leaguer from Cleveland or a particular minor leaguer from BOS that they are not willing to part with. Perhaps they were trying to treat Boston as if they were searching for a starting CFer and leadoff hitter, rather than as a team looking for a 3rd or 4th outfielder (like CLE is). In any case, if the Sox FO knew that Michaels was not an option then I don't see anything wrong with Crisp. Ellsbury is at least 2-3 seasons away and Crisp could be a valuable trading piece if he's ready earlier than that. Finally, again, we don't know who the minor league players involved are. good passion though dude.

I can't help but wonder, and perhaps someone could fill me in here, why was Michaels behind Kenny Lofton on the depth chart if he is as good as everyone implies? The phillies were a decent team last year, it seems that he would have played a whole lot more if he were really a .430 OBP kind of guy. I don't know. In any case, the fact that Michaels and Coco have similar numbers, yet Crisp is considerably younger and a switch hitter is enough for me to be happy with this deal. Again, I'm VERY skeptical of a straight-up Cleveland-Philly Mota/Michaels trade.

Perhaps you missed the fact that everyone one this board acknowledges that they don't know what the deal is, ultimately. We don't know who is going where, which players are changing hands; particularly not the minor leaguers. Let's not rush to judgment yet. If the Sox get back a few other good prospects, or if the Guardians have to give up one of their top pitching prospects with Mota to get Michaels then you won't be complaining. Just wait instead of assuming that the Sox are stupid. if they could have gotten Michaels for Mota, they would have gotten Michaels for Mota. Period. Why even debate or question that?

Anything in particular that stood out to you in your analysis of their relative value to the sox? Just curious.

Dotel has great stuff. He's a headcase, but he has better stuff than Tavarez. I would rather have Tavarez in his role for the Red Sox than Dotel in his role for the yankees though. Dotel will be under more pressure I think, as the Sox have Foulke, Timlin and possibly Seanez who would pitch in more important situations than Tavarez. The Yankees have Farnsworth, that's true, but he seems a guy who will fold or lose control when the Yankees need it least. Tavarez is the king headcase, but I think its harder to get into his head as an opposing team than it is with Dotel. They are the same age, yet Tavarez has thrown 400 more innings in his career. He seems more consistent and has taken a Timlin like role for St. Louis the past few years. IMO, both Dotel and Farnsworth are a step down from Tom Gordon the past few years. Its good for the Yanks that they have them, don't get me wrong, but Tom Gordon was experienced and had pretty good stuff. He also had proved that he could handle that situation working with Mo. What it comes down to though, is that there hasn't been a single bullpen that has worried me as a Sox fan the past few years. That is up to and including Mariano Rivera. The most successful pitching against the sox has been starters, the first 2.5 times through the batting order, particularly guys who the sox hadn't seen very often, and guys like Lilly, Lopez, and Kasmir. Both the sox and the yanks have significantly improved their pens depth-wise. We'll have to see how it works out in the end.

Defensively? I don't think the Yanks are better in the field at any position right now. Defensively: C: Varitek > Posada 1B: Snow/Youkilis > Giambi 2B: Loretta > Cano SS: Jeter = Gonz 3B: Lowell = ARod LF: Manny and Matsui are both bad, unless you expect them to be bad, that's when they make a leaping grab. CF: This one we'll have to see. I think Crisp will be faster and better in CF than Damon, but we'll see. RF: Trot > or = to Sheffield Damon's runs are not important. He played for the Red Sox for crying out loud; the only team since the 20's yankees to score 900 plus runs in 3 consecutive seasons. Crisp will be crossing the plate plenty this season IMO.

I think the word the FO uses is "retooling". They like the body of the machine, they just want to tweak the insides a bit. They completely rebuilt the bullpen and added considerable talent and youth to the SPs. They also completely rebuilt the lineup, but added players who, IMO, are better at doing what the Sox like to do than their previous counterparts were. This team is still a 120 mill team, that's true. They will be difficult outs 1-9 and if Schilling can return to 2003 form (what the sox were hoping to purchase when they got him, not his stellar form of 2004) then its a great staff 1-5. good stuff.

Peralta? What are you talking about? Peralta was never an option. It is a little hard to watch Marte and all of his talent go. But he's going to a non-AL East team. He's part of a deal that will net us a player who fits all of our needs re: leadoff and CF. Crisp is young and getting better.

Couldn't have put it better myself. I'm hoping the sox get someone else in addition to Crisp, hopefully somebody good. Crisp will be exciting to watch and should be at the top of their order for a few years. Think about it this way; if this trade is for real then the sox FO didn't think that their future success hinged on whether or not Marte was on the team. They saw him as a chip, redeamable for another player who more closely suited their needs. Crisp is cheap. He hits with some pop and plays decent defense. He's the kind of player who is just a pain in the ass when you play against him. He's still young enough to be a key part of their future and he keeps the team competitive in the short term too. This is going to be a really solid team IMO. I love the skill from top to bottom in the lineup, I like the outfield of Manny-Crisp-Nixon. I like Crisp/Loretta/Ortiz/Manny at the top of the order. I'm also happy that the sox have filled all of their holes without losing Lester, Papelbon, Pedroia or Hansen. I was looking forward to Marte, but I can get excited by Crisp too I think.

Sorry to follow up, but its been 30 minutes or so and I just thought of something. Is Marte currently the Sox 4th outfielder/platoon mate with Trot? Is that where he'll get his playing time? It seems like Youkilis or T. Graff would be the 3rd base backup, with JT Snow a more than suitable fill-in 1B. If they've asked Marte already about playing the outfield (which I read they had) isn't he a potential RHH RF, perhaps more often on the road than at Fenway? In any case, that's a good reason to try anything but trading Marte to get Crisp. I would say you can take any two players from the following list for Crisp: Clement, Arroyo, Shoppach, Lowell, Wells, Graffinino, Mota, Seanez, plus any minor leaguer not named Marte, Papelbon, Hansen, Lester, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Soto or Bowden. If there is ANY way to get a deal from the above list I would make it. I think Crisp is versetile and getting better. He meets 2 needs and is above average offensively. I agree with Ksushi, in that we don't NEED offense. At the same time, I think it is clear that the Sox have improved their pitching staff and potentially (especially by losing Damon without an adequate replacement) lowered our offensive output. Crisp may remedy it a little bit and make the team very solid on both sides of the ball. He's definitely not Torii Hunter defensively, but I think he would prove to be as good as Damon. I thought that Damoon made plays that MLB center fielders should make, and he didn't make many that they shouldn't make. He made nice looking jumping catches but so did a lot of visiting CFs. Damon's arm was simply horrible. His greatest asset was a very strong knowledge of Fenway's CF. Crisp would be great to get at even a high cost. He doesn't suck. He's not Damon right now, and he's not what Marte MIGHT be. However, he is a more than adequate player to have in any of the three OF positions.

I hope you've settled down after your rant Ksushi. I just don't think its that bad of a move. Its not like they're trading Marte for an old player. Crisp has been an admirable player over the past few years and should continue to be a good one. On the surface Crisp for Marte isn't a fair deal. If you throw in a few top prospects from Cleveland (say, players on the caliber of Anibel Sanchez or Hanley) then its not that bad a deal. They have a few players who have a high upside. If they really covet Marte then perhaps the sox brass will find a way to make them overpay. I just don't expect the Red Sox to make a stupid trade and trade away the next generation's Brooks Robinson or Scott Rolen for a player who ends up being like Matt Lawton. They just wouldn't do that. You know that and I know that. I can't even think of the last bad trade the sox made... I supposed Jay Payton for Chad Bradford was a little bit of a let down, but it wasn't significant either given that Payton wanted to leave at all costs. In any case, if Marte is really going to be a 40 HR perennial all star then the sox won't trade him without a fair deal coming back the other way. Have some faith and get your head out of the pillow!

Where are you getting that information? I read the article and it said nothing about which prospects the Guardians were giving up, and on this board as well as a few others there is wild speculation about who those players might be. I'm in favor of doing this is we get good prospects back in return. If its one of the Guardians top 5 prospects and another pretty good one (or young one), plus Crisp for Marte, Mota and another young prospect, it could be a good deal. Crisp is a good young player. He has made it at the ML level and, as opposed to Marte, he isn't a question mark. We know what we would get (at the least) and Crisp has a pretty high ceiling as well. A good, multi year CF replacement option? Sounds good. We also have Kevin Youkilis who can easily be our 3b of the future, as the Sox can go out and find another first baseman. I really don't think its the equivalent of giving up Babe Ruth for coco crisp. Talk about getting sizemore or Peralta is just silly. That's the equivalent of other teams asking for Papelbon or Hansen; its just not going to happen. Given that, let's be realistic about what we're hoping for. You want Sizemore? Offer Pepelbon. You want Peralta? Offer lester. Peralta and Sizemore are probably worth MORE than those guys. I think some of us need to get our heads out of our asses and realize that other teams just aren't going to give up their very best players for prospects. They might give up some of their better players for prospects, and if those players fit what the sox need then that's okay too. We would still have a rich and deep farm system without Marte, given that what we're ultimately concerned with is not the minor league system but the major league club. Crisp would be a top prospect, if he weren't already one of the better OFers in the AL for his age. I think this deal has a good chance of happening and I feel that Crisp could be a great fixture in the Sox lineup for a few years. The fans will like him, he will provide 5 pretty good tools, and will make this team a potent one for the next few years. Crisp Loretta Ortiz Manny Varitek Lowell Trot Youkilis Cora Potent 1-8, good defense at 9.

Their defense would continue to suck if Soriano went to 2nd. The entire reason they got Loretta this year was to start him at 2nd. Not as a backup, not as a shortstop, but as a starting second baseman. I believe that the red sox have had some of the league's better 2nd basemen the last few years and they were all experienced, relatively slow, but patient hitters who had some pop and who made good plays in the field. Loretta has the chance to be a gritty player in the mold of Mueller IMO.

He played in nearly 130 games last year, hit 35 HR, 90+ RBI had a VORP of 59.2 and a .946OPS (one point below Miguel Cabrera, .013 below Vlad). He likely wouldn't cost them much, except for money and Clement (if it is possible for them to get him at all). They have the first and Clement, well, he's available too I believe. Red flags? Certainly. Also certainly red flags trading good young players for a guy like Reed or Crisp, only to put those guys in front of other potential young players or other FA's. If they assume trot is leaving next year, Griffey could move to RF and they could sign a really good CF as soon as one is available. I'm not totally advocating this move; it could be good or it could be bad depending on injuries. But they wouldn't throw away the club for Griffey, they could still push hard for Jeremy Reed as a safety option, and it would allow them to move one of their myriad pitchers.

Oh I think it would be better. I think Manny and Papi are better than Thome and Konerko, and a non-injured Griffey is better than Dye. 2005 VORP totals: Konerko: 56.4 Thome: 2.5 (let's say his 2004 total of 60.3) Dye: 35.7 vs. 2005 VORP Manny: 68.6 Ortiz: 85.8 Griffey: 59.2 2005 OPS: Konerko: .909 Thome (2004): .977 Dye: .846 vs. Manny: .982 Ortiz: 1.001 Griffey: .946 It would be better to compare it to A-Rod, Sheffield and Matsui.

Last year at this time I would have agreed. But if the Sox could get 128 games out of him he would be a tremendous asset. If they could get 35 HR, 92 RBI and a .945 OPS it would help them so much. It's not entirely risk free, but if all they were to lose was Arroyo or Clement, or a non-top-5 prospect it might be worth it.

I don't think Theo is revolutionary in his taste for ML experienced, versitile guys who don't cost a lot of money. What is revolutionary is that its a Red Sox team that is doing it; spend considerable time and effort to build the team from the bottom up. I like the move, but its not very exciting. Who's spot does he take on the 40 man?

This is kind of a yawner. I remember being intregued about Ricky Guiteriez at first and then realizing why the Sox were able to get him. Its a depth move, nothing more.

I really don't think it would be wise to trade Clement, Nixon AND Pedroia for an over-the-hill, injury prone OFer and an infielder whose numbers likely aren't better than what we can expect from Pedroia by the year after next. Including last year's breakout season (.291 .352. 486. 838) Lopez's career ops is .743. I don't think he's a bad player; just not worth Clement, Trot and Pedroia. If you could pull it off, though, without Pedroia, I could see Lopez and Pedroia as the shortstop-second baseman combination of the future. Perhaps Arroyo, Nixon and someone else (Graff?) for Lopez and Griffey. I'm not sold on Griffey at all, especially as it would be a long term deal for a questionable (as QUESTIONABLE as they come) power hitter, at a high price. If he plays RF he's bound to get injured in that vast outfield with its weird corner, and if the sox try to rest him then he's not worth the 12 million. Damon was reliable; he produced nearly every day which should earn him 12 million before Griffey does. Damon is not worth 12 million to the Sox and neither is Griffey. If they could get someone really good in addition to Griffey they could pull off a Beckett/Lowell deal to get a cheap young player and throw Griffey in to lose his salary. A healthy full-season of griffey would make the Sox lineup as good as it has been over the past few years, I don't care who plays CF or SS. Youkilis Loretta Ortiz Manny Griffey Varitek Lowell Cora Reed I've heard that Griffey doesn't really want to play in Boston, but you would think he would love a chance to win a World Series in the final 3 years of his current (and perhaps last) conract.

I think Craig Hansen is a 6'5, 22-year old who pitched an entire college season as his team's best reliever, was drafted and pitched in a few games before being thrown into a pennant race in the AL East. I think he throws a 96-97 mph heater and is said to have one of the best breaking balls in the entire minor leagues (a slider in this case). He will be good. I remember at some point last season hearing that Hansen had to tell Tek that he also had a slider and that his slider was actually his strike out pitch. Varitek didn't know that his slider was anything special, and Hansen only threw a few of them (3-4 tops I bet). The ones he threw were pretty flat and not sharp. I don't think they were strikes. That seems pretty understandable given that he hadn't thrown one in a game for a long time. In any case, I'm not sold on Hansen as the next Mariano Rivera, but I AM sold on someone with his stuff and his size wearing a Sox uniform. If he gets the right mentality (which he could very well have already) he could be a lights out closer. EDIT: 1) this post is pretty off topic, sorry folks. 2) There is a good 5 min interview with Craig Hansen from the rookie conference last week on redsox.com --> rosters ---> Craig Hansen

In this day and age you should be able to get a CF who is both a good fielder and who hits well enough to add something. If our CFer hits like Alex Cora then I think we could do better, but he doesn't need to hit like Manny. All of that grey area in between (good hitters vs. good fielders in CF) seems very hard to quantify. Defense itself is very hard to quantify, so I suppose a grey area involving fielding vs. hitting is hard too. In any case, I HOPE the red sox have enough offense. They should, with Manny and Ortiz (not to mention the rest of their good hitters) but its not the same team as the last 3 years and I don't expect 900 runs. So the question becomes how many runs are we losing and how many runs are we preventing. If reed puts up numbers offensively like last year I can't imagine that Crisp wouldn't more than make up for that with his bat (in terms of winning games, that is). But if Reed hits something like .280, .355, .450 and plays great defense, then he might be more valuable. It is very hard to tell, but if anyone has any ideas about figuring this out (ORS?) feel free to interject. All in all, I hope we either get a baller (see: balla) in CF who just mashes the ball, or an above average fielding CF with a good arm. One side or the other is fine, just be very good either offensively or defensively and we'll be fine.