5/8 @ Royals

[jung]

So you don't think Bard struggled through the 7th?

[TylerD]

I really have no idea what or who it will take to get this ball club right again. It's sad when we can even expect wins against teams like Kansas City. Every single game is a challenge for the Sox now. Absolutely unreal. It's so hard to get excited about a win now, because we go on to lose the next two or three. Very disappointing loss tonight. Was hoping we could get a sweep in this series and right this ship. We just have to big of holes right now to be consistent and it starts with the manager.

[a700hitter]

He was spent. The pen had last night off and could have won this game. Bard sucks when he is spent. Like I said' date=' I would be keeping a very close eye on him. Valentine didn't. Fire Valentine along with the rest of those losers in the FO.[/quote']If he is spent after 86 pitches on a cool spring night, then he shouldn't be a starter.

[a700hitter]

So you don't think Bard struggled through the 7th?

The signs of him choking were there in the 7th, but he wasn't gassed.

[Station 13]

I think Miller is more than a garbage time LOOGY. Could give him the 8th with two lefties up.

 

Albers got to go though, he has no idea where he launch the ball once it leaves him.

[Station 13]

Beside Aceves, Albers and Padilla are s***** relievers. Need Tazawa up if they can't use Aceves to pitch to a RHH in the 8th. Motersen is a soft tossing specialist that will get figured out quickly. What's he doing here to only pitch in garbage time?

[jung]

The point is not what condition Bard should have been in. It does not matter that Bard SHOULD have been able to throw over 100 pitches. He was gassed at 86 pitches tonight and anybody with a pair of eyes could see that he was gassed. Whether he should have been gassed or not is meaningless.

 

The stupidity of relying on the pitch count could not be more obvious. He was at 86 pitches going into that inning. So what should V have done 16 pitches later. Would it have suddenly been OK to take him out now that he has thrown those magical 16 pitches? Why because some God of pitch count has now been satisfied? It is just ridiculous.

 

In addition it should have been obvious that Bard had really handled this stint very poorly and had caused himself a great deal of undue stress as a result. Undue stress is frankly often more debilitating than physical exertion. I suspect that is why he was gassed at 86 pitches. Do you think two balks and almost decapitating the home plate umpire is the kind of thing you would expect from a guy that had it together?

 

That is what should make the pitch count a secondary consideration. It boggles the imagination that the first thing some managers talk about after an outing like this is the pitch count. Of course it does alleviate them from any responsibility to play situational baseball. They can blame it all on a number.

 

and why bring in fat albers when Miller was just siting there?

[a700hitter]

The point is not what condition Bard should have been in. It does not matter that Bard SHOULD have been able to throw over 100 pitches. He was gassed at 86 pitches tonight and anybody with a pair of eyes could see that he was gassed. Whether he should have been gassed or not is meaningless.

 

The stupidity of relying on the pitch count could not be more obvious. He was at 86 pitches going into that inning. So what should V have done 16 pitches later. Would it have suddenly been OK to take him out now that he has thrown those magical 16 pitches? Why because some God of pitch count has now been satisfied? It is just ridiculous.

 

In addition it should have been obvious that Bard had really handled this stint very poorly and had caused himself a great deal of undue stress as a result. Undue stress is frankly often more debilitating than physical exertion. I suspect that is why he was gassed at 86 pitches. Do you think two balks and almost decapitating the home plate umpire is the kind of thing you would expect from a guy that had it together?

 

That is what should make the pitch count a secondary consideration. It boggles the imagination that the first thing some managers talk about after an outing like this is the pitch count. Of course it does alleviate them from any responsibility to play situational baseball. They can blame it all on a number.

 

and why bring in fat albers when Miller was just siting there?

He had plenty left in the tank. He was humping it to the plate harder in the 7th than earlier in the game. He got his only strikeout to end the 7th. If anything, he screwed himself up by overthrowing. Gassed? I don't think so. He didn't look gassed to me. He looked like he lost focus and s*** himself a bit.

[a700hitter]

Bard knows that he s*** himself. That's why he was pissed off.

[The Village Idiot]

The Sox have gotten too cute for their own good these last few years.

 

And last season and this season are the results.

 

It's a tough pill to swallow, but it really is as simple as that.

 

Everyone's to blame, but mostly the management/owners/front office and the guys on the God damned field, of course.

 

All this being said, however, as real fans, we really have no other choice than to intently observe how this all shakes down. Just take deep breaths while you're doing it, engage in regular physical activity to keep your cardio strong, and don't expect too much.

 

I love Sox wins as much as or more than anyone, but to everything, turn, turn, turn, there is a season, turn, turn, turn, and a time to every purpose, under heaven.

[boston22407]

Damn we are pretty bad

[jung]

Yea Bard got his only strike out in the 7th and promptly walked the first batter he saw in the 8th. His location in the 7th would suggest that whatever he had left he gave in that 7th inning. If you did not believe that then, his first pitches of the 8th which were nowhere should have left no doubt.

 

As Bard himself just said in the KC locker room, his arm felt fine but he felt fatigue in his lower back and his legs and "I have to learn how to pitch in those conditions". His arm angle was all over the place.

 

You want to look at his velocity and suggest that he was not spent because he could hump it up there. Sure he could hump it up there...nowhere near the strike zone but he could hump it up there. He could throw the ball but he could not maintain his arm angle and could not hit the broad side of a barn.

 

So you could look at this another way. You could say that the Sox gave up this game in the continuing tutelage of Daniel Bard but you can't say he was not spent because he was. He simply does not know how to manage his body nor his mind as the stress and the fatigue take their toll and he does not know how to pitch when in that condition just like some boxers do not know how to box in that condition.

 

A guy in his 30's will be fighting some young guy in his 20s and as the later rounds come up the older guy is often still fresh and has something in the tank and the younger guy is often spent because the younger guy does not know how to deal with either the stress of the moment or the continuing effect of fatigue. Same thing here. Only difference is Bard has a loss instead of a bloody nose!

[RedSoxNC84]

Damnit Middlebrooks, I just added you to my fantasy roster! WHY!!

[FredLynn]

If he is spent after 86 pitches on a cool spring night' date=' then he shouldn't be a starter.[/quote']

 

I agree; he shouldn't be a starter. He should not have been spent, but he was.

At this point it doesn't matter what the team does. The handwriting is on the wall for them: no playoffs. Third year in a row.

[RedSoxNC84]

I agree; he shouldn't be a starter. He should not have been spent, but he was.

At this point it doesn't matter what the team does. The handwriting is on the wall for them: no playoffs. Third year in a row.

 

Starting to look that way

[FredLynn]

People, just look at all the runs we have surrendered to powerhouse teams like the A's, the Orioles, and the Royals in the past three series:6, 5, 4, 6, 8, 9, 5, 6. Thats over 6 runs per game. Realistically, how many games are we going to win like that?

This team absolutely is the worst excuse for a team we have had shoved down our throats since Henry bought the club. A total cleaning of the house is in order, or we will not be sniffing the playoffs again any time soon.

WE STINK!

[jacksonianmarch]

It's tough to clean house with a ton of long term, bad contracts on the books

[FredLynn]

It's tough to clean house with a ton of long term' date=' bad contracts on the books[/quote']

 

Yup. The first step is to admit that the team is in need of that housecleaning. Its like an alcoholic admitting that he is an alcoholic and needs help. Self awareness. I am not sure the ownership understands just how bad this team really is. They look at the few good players they have and still think we can compete for the playoffs. Once the owners become aware of the monster they created then the healing can begin. It will take many years to fix what Epstein created here.

[a700hitter]

Yea Bard got his only strike out in the 7th and promptly walked the first batter he saw in the 8th. His location in the 7th would suggest that whatever he had left he gave in that 7th inning. If you did not believe that then, his first pitches of the 8th which were nowhere should have left no doubt.

 

As Bard himself just said in the KC locker room, his arm felt fine but he felt fatigue in his lower back and his legs and "I have to learn how to pitch in those conditions". His arm angle was all over the place.

 

You want to look at his velocity and suggest that he was not spent because he could hump it up there. Sure he could hump it up there...nowhere near the strike zone but he could hump it up there. He could throw the ball but he could not maintain his arm angle and could not hit the broad side of a barn.

 

So you could look at this another way. You could say that the Sox gave up this game in the continuing tutelage of Daniel Bard but you can't say he was not spent because he was. He simply does not know how to manage his body nor his mind as the stress and the fatigue take their toll and he does not know how to pitch when in that condition just like some boxers do not know how to box in that condition.

 

A guy in his 30's will be fighting some young guy in his 20s and as the later rounds come up the older guy is often still fresh and has something in the tank and the younger guy is often spent because the younger guy does not know how to deal with either the stress of the moment or the continuing effect of fatigue. Same thing here. Only difference is Bard has a loss instead of a bloody nose!

The signs were there that he was going to blow up, especially after the first batter. I would not have had a problem with him taking him out, but I had no problem with him keeping him in. I still think it was more a case of focus than fatigue. Sure, he wasn't as fresh as a daisy, but you've got to get through the later innings and throw strikes. I'm not going to hang Bobby V on this one, because he probably wasn't going to get 2 scoreless from the pen. If he brought in Albers after the first walk, he'd still have given up the bomb to Sweeney and we'd have lost by 1 instead of 2.

[a700hitter]

Damnit Middlebrooks' date=' I just added you to my fantasy roster! WHY!![/quote']I hope you didn't cut anyone good to pick him up. There's a good chance that he is headed to AAA in 10 days.

[a700hitter]

People, just look at all the runs we have surrendered to powerhouse teams like the A's, the Orioles, and the Royals in the past three series:6, 5, 4, 6, 8, 9, 5, 6. Thats over 6 runs per game. Realistically, how many games are we going to win like that?

This team absolutely is the worst excuse for a team we have had shoved down our throats since Henry bought the club. A total cleaning of the house is in order, or we will not be sniffing the playoffs again any time soon.

WE STINK!

We do stink. I don't know what kind of magic people think will come over this bunch to make them competitive. They are not going to take shape, get it together or whatever. They can't win in the soft part of the schedule. The good teams will run them off the field.

[redsoxbeatz]

maybe this team is still demoralized from last season.

 

I can't believe how excited I was for baseball season to begin and now it's a huge let down and all I can do is mope around till football season. I know Tom Brady, BB & Co. won't let me down.

 

Kraft should buy the Red Sox, too.

[redsoxbeatz]

The Red Sox scored 10 runs in a game eight times through their first 28 games -- the most through 28 games since 1918.

 

• The Red Sox and Royals lead the Majors in doubles with 82 and 67 two-baggers, respectively. However, Kansas City's streak of doubling in 28 consecutive games ended on Tuesday.

[jung]

Last night's performance was the first one that for me calls into question the viability of Bard as a starter. That is not to say that the Bard Starter experiment should end.

 

In the first place Bard has not gotten more confident nor competent in the role in spite of having now had some starts and in spite of the fact that he has made it past the period when he was at risk for being tossed back into the pen. However, flaws and weaknesses exposed in earlier starts were all acceptable to me up until I take last night's Bard performance against the Royals and stack that one on top of the others.

 

As I have said earlier in this thread, there was no question in my mind that Bard was gassed after the 7th inning last night. There is also no question in my mind that most of his problems were of his own making including the added pressure he put on himself due to a complete lack of composure. I am also of the view that the added pressure Bard put on himself due to his lack of composure was a significant contributor to the degree to which he was a spent load by the end of the 7th inning regardless of the pitch count.

 

Bard's being gassed at 86 pitches given his lack of maturity in the starters role does not bother me as much as the fact that he appears capable of such a lack of composure that he stresses himself out completely over issues that should be controllable and contributed to his early retirement due to exhaustion. Those two balks were ridiculous and a complete manifestation of Bard's own making. By the end of the 7th inning he had shot his load and was spent, so much so that he was completely incapable of controlling his arm angle in the 8th and could not throw strikes to save his skin although he could still throw with velocity. Velocity with no control is useless and not meaningful.

 

In addition, he was so stressed out by the runner on first again in the 8th as he was with men on in the 2nd inning, he nearly decapitated the ump while the ump was calling time. He was so flustered, he threw the ball at the ump instead of at the catcher. By that time the ump was eight feet from home plate!

 

I am not saying the Bard starter experiment is a failure. I am not necessarily saying it should be ended. I am saying that he has not in my view learned to control his mind and body in such a way that he can avoid these outings where he ends up stressed out and exhausted.

 

If the Sox want to continue the Bard starter experiment, they need to accept the fact that leaning on the pitch count is the wrong thing to do in judging if he should continue in any given game. If Bard is not making good throws and you have witnessed him unable to control his pitches and and his composure, get him outta' there. Never mind, the pitch count is 86 pitches....I don't give a s***. All you had to do was see the look on Bard's face in the dugout after the 7th inning to know he was done. I have no doubt that if you looked directly into his eyes you would have seen that vacant look that you will find on a boxer that has taken all the punches he can take in a given night, or a free safety (my position) that has just been whacked in the head to many times in a given game.

 

Bard had learned everything he was going to learn from last night's start by the end of 7 innings. That lose last night is on V for not understanding the baseball condition of his starter and posing it accordingly given the baseball situation of his team.

 

As for Bard himself, the coaches need to help him through these starts. V came out early in the Doubront start and calmed him down. Nobody came out to help Bard either in the 2nd inning or in the 7th inning or in the 8th inning. What the hell was that? These are young guys. We all thought V's problem would be with the Sox veterans but that he would be good with the young guys. Does not look like that to me.

[kapsis21]

Last night's performance was the first one that for me calls into question the viability of Bard as a starter. That is not to say that the Bard Starter experiment should end.

 

In the first place Bard has not gotten more confident nor competent in the role in spite of having now had some starts and in spite of the fact that he has made it past the period when he was at risk for being tossed back into the pen. However, flaws and weaknesses exposed in earlier starts were all acceptable to me up until I take last night's Bard performance against the Royals and stack that one on top of the others.

 

As I have said earlier in this thread, there was no question in my mind that Bard was gassed after the 7th inning last night. There is also no question in my mind that most of his problems were of his own making including the added pressure he put on himself due to a complete lack of composure. I am also of the view that the added pressure Bard put on himself due to his lack of composure was a significant contributor to the degree to which he was a spent load by the end of the 7th inning regardless of the pitch count.

 

Bard's being gassed at 86 pitches given his lack of maturity in the starters role does not bother me as much as the fact that he appears capable of such a lack of composure that he stresses himself out completely over issues that should be controllable and contributed to his early retirement due to exhaustion. Those two balks were ridiculous and a complete manifestation of Bard's own making. By the end of the 7th inning he had shot his load and was spent, so much so that he was completely incapable of controlling his arm angle in the 8th and could not throw strikes to save his skin although he could still throw with velocity. Velocity with no control is useless and not meaningful.

 

In addition, he was so stressed out by the runner on first again in the 8th as he was with men on in the 2nd inning, he nearly decapitated the ump while the ump was calling time. He was so flustered, he threw the ball at the ump instead of at the catcher. By that time the ump was eight feet from home plate!

 

I am not saying the Bard starter experiment is a failure. I am not necessarily saying it should be ended. I am saying that he has not in my view learned to control his mind and body in such a way that he can avoid these outings where he ends up stressed out and exhausted.

 

If the Sox want to continue the Bard starter experiment, they need to accept the fact that leaning on the pitch count is the wrong thing to do in judging if he should continue in any given game. If Bard is not making good throws and you have witnessed him unable to control his pitches and and his composure, get him outta' there. Never mind, the pitch count is 86 pitches....I don't give a s***. All you had to do was see the look on Bard's face in the dugout after the 7th inning to know he was done. I have no doubt that if you looked directly into his eyes you would have seen that vacant look that you will find on a boxer that has taken all the punches he can take in a given night, or a free safety (my position) that has just been whacked in the head to many times in a given game.

 

Bard had learned everything he was going to learn from last night's start by the end of 7 innings. That lose last night is on V for not understanding the baseball condition of his starter and posing it accordingly given the baseball situation of his team.

 

As for Bard himself, the coaches need to help him through these starts. V came out early in the Doubront start and calmed him down. Nobody came out to help Bard either in the 2nd inning or in the 7th inning or in the 8th inning. What the hell was that? These are young guys. We all thought V's problem would be with the Sox veterans but that he would be good with the young guys. Does not look like that to me.

 

are you willing to coach. cuz f***ing BV doesnt know what the hell he is doing out there.. all your comments are spot on.. but i still think Bard is going to be a brilliant starter once he figures it out. the fact that we were winning 4-3 in the 8th inning and remove the balks and its another beautiful outing by Bard. hoping the idiotic pitching coach is doing something about it..

[a700hitter]

If the Sox want to continue the Bard starter experiment, they need to accept the fact that leaning on the pitch count is the wrong thing to do in judging if he should continue in any given game. If Bard is not making good throws and you have witnessed him unable to control his pitches and and his composure, get him outta' there. Never mind, the pitch count is 86 pitches....I don't give a s***.

I agree that pitch counts shouldn't be dictating pitching moves. The problem with Bard is that he just as easily could have blown himself up in the second inning when he was balking like a little leaguer.

 

Free Safety? The only bigger wimps on a football team are the place kickers.

[a700hitter]

are you willing to coach. cuz f***ing BV doesnt know what the hell he is doing out there.. all your comments are spot on.. but i still think Bard is going to be a brilliant starter once he figures it out. the fact that we were winning 4-3 in the 8th inning and remove the balks and its another beautiful outing by Bard. hoping the idiotic pitching coach is doing something about it..

Where did his strikeout pitch go as a starter? As a reliever he struck out more than 10 per 9 innings. In his last 2 starts he has had 1 strikeout against the lowly A's and 1 against KC. The A's k like crazy.

[kapsis21]

Where did his strikeout pitch go as a starter? As a reliever he struck out more than 10 per 9 innings. In his last 2 starts he has had 1 strikeout against the lowly A's and 1 against KC. The A's k like crazy.

 

As a starter some days you dont have that strikeout pitch, and inspite of him not having the strikeout pitch he pitched well against the KC lineup.

the only thing i can take from this is

he still isnt mentally prepared to go out and finish 9 innings just like jung mentioned. he isnt thinking that way and its the coaching guys job to see that identify it and make him do that.

 

i did not see the game but everything jung mentioned why wasnt the pitching coach talking to him in 2nd or the 7th inning to calm him down.. its painful, lets get John Farrell back please.

[Station 13]

Where did his strikeout pitch go as a starter? As a reliever he struck out more than 10 per 9 innings. In his last 2 starts he has had 1 strikeout against the lowly A's and 1 against KC. The A's k like crazy.

 

Against the Royals, he threw just 86 pitches in 7 innings. Inducing early groundballs. His strikeout are gone since his slider has disappeared. He threw a lot of sliders in his starts against the Jays and White Sox. And they were excellent sliders, and he could snap one off at will. He hasn't done that lately. Is his elbow bothering him? He is not used to throwing this many pitches yet. as a rookie starter, he has done better than their prized acquisition John Lackey.

[kapsis21]

bring Dennis Eckersley would love his personality... i am getting tired of BV even though its not his fault.. its FO that needs to be blamed.