Who will go north as the 5th Starter?

[Dojji]

Miller been told to ditch his windup. So he isn't going to make any starts.

 

Not sure if I agree with the logic. There's a few other starters out there that go from the stretch at all times.

[jung]

I am a little surprised that Aceves still holds the lead in the pole given the progress Doubront has shown and the obvious desire to keep Aceves in the pen if it is at all possible.

 

Padilla is still not doing much to impress me and I have nightmares about that big slow eephus pitch of his.

[Elktonnick]

I am a little surprised that Aceves still holds the lead in the pole given the progress Doubront has shown and the obvious desire to keep Aceves in the pen if it is at all possible.

 

Padilla is still not doing much to impress me and I have nightmares about that big slow eephus pitch of his.

 

It can work in the right spots so long as he doesn't over use it. It was an effective weapon for Bill Lee at one time, although it also came back to huant him if you recall.

[jung]

As much as I like Bill Lee, I think he did in fact overuse the eephus.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post the thing that concerns me most about Padilla is the fastball. It still seems really flat to me and his location is not that good either. Everything else he throws seems to me to suffer because there is not that much scary about his fastball.

 

To be honest I think if he was facing regular season major league lineups the way he is pitching right now he would get chewed up.

[Elktonnick]

As much as I like Bill Lee, I think he did in fact overuse the eephus.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post the thing that concerns me most about Padilla is the fastball. It still seems really flat to me and his location is not that good either. Everything else he throws seems to me to suffer because there is not that much scary about his fastball.

 

To be honest I think if he was facing regular season major league lineups the way he is pitching right now he would get chewed up.

 

I think the way he is pitching now Padilla makes the team in the pen. He has good control, unlike Miller.

[SCM33]

I am a little surprised that Aceves still holds the lead in the pole given the progress Doubront has shown and the obvious desire to keep Aceves in the pen if it is at all possible.

 

Padilla is still not doing much to impress me and I have nightmares about that big slow eephus pitch of his.

 

Padilla looked good today so Im not so sure why he didnt impress you. Good velocity, great snap to his pitches and kept the ball low. His first inning out there he labored because of am error that lead off an inning and a hit an run where the hitter hit the ball off of the ground. It was a flukey.

 

People read wayyy too much in to spring training performances. Dont look at the results, look at what they're doing and how they look doing it.

[jung]

What he is doing is what bothers me. I do agree that with the way the Sox pen is setting up he has a spot there. V will just have to be careful where he uses him.

 

He is not throwing balls. That much is true. However he is almost to the point of being wild in the middle of the plate. He is catching to much of the plate with pitches that are not doing very much at all.

 

That last flare hit in the ninth was not some magnificent hitting effort as much as it was another nothing pitch in a pretty bad spot. Likely the kind of pitch that a better hitter would have tagged.

 

When you compare Padilla's outing with Buch's, Buch had much better location and much better movement. He was fooling hitters. Not making the comparison to suggest people should have expectations for Padiilla that they have for Buch but just as an example for how far behind Padilla is.

 

I would not want to see V bring Padilla into situations where he had to get the first out or the opposition was going to score. I think he has a shot at middle to long relief if the starter fails and somebody comes in and gets the starter out of whatever jam he is in. I think there is a chance that Padiila could get through a lower half or maybe even one time through an entire lineup pitching the way he is pitching right now. But his fastball is flat and doing nothing.

 

Velocity is meaningless in the majors unless there is movement as well. Padiila is almost grooving most of these pitches and he is definitely getting to much plate with pitches that are not moving anywhere. The fastballs end right were Padilla has started them. That is why for the most part nothing else he throws is very effective. Major league hitters are not going to be afraid of that fastball. In fact, they are likely going to climb all over it. If he starts catching more black through the rest of ST he would be better off but not sure how much until I see it.

[jung]

What he is doing is what bothers me. I do agree that with the way the Sox pen is setting up he has a spot there. V will just have to be careful where he uses him.

 

He is not throwing balls. That much is true. However he is almost to the point of being wild in the middle of the plate. He is catching to much of the plate with pitches that are not doing very much at all.

 

That last flare hit in the ninth was not some magnificent hitting effort as much as it was another nothing pitch in a pretty bad spot. Likely the kind of pitch that a better hitter would have tagged.

 

When you compare Padilla's outing with Buch's, Buch had much better location and much better movement. He was fooling hitters. Not making the comparison to suggest people should have expectations for Padiilla that they have for Buch but just as an example for how far behind Padilla is.

 

I would not want to see V bring Padilla into situations where he had to get the first out or the opposition was going to score. I think he has a shot at middle to long relief if the starter fails and somebody comes in and gets the starter out of whatever jam he is in. I think there is a chance that Padiila could get through a lower half or maybe even one time through an entire lineup pitching the way he is pitching right now. But his fastball is flat and doing nothing.

 

Velocity is meaningless in the majors unless there is movement as well. Padiila is almost grooving most of these pitches and he is definitely getting to much plate with pitches that are not moving anywhere. The fastballs end right were Padilla has started them. That is why for the most part nothing else he throws is very effective. Major league hitters are not going to be afraid of that fastball. In fact, they are likely going to climb all over it. If he starts catching more black through the rest of ST he would be better off but not sure how much until I see it.

[Elktonnick]

One shouldn't expect any pitchers to be showing too much velocity at this juncture in ST. We are only half way through ST. Throwing too hard too early in ST can actually cause injuries later. Things will begin to move a bit more quickly the last two weeks of ST. Monday BV should make a few more cuts and perhaps begin to setup the rotation for openning day. Regarding Padilla I am less concerned about his pitching ability than I am his mental and emotional stability. Guys like Milton Bradley Carlos Zambrano and Padilla generally can't change their behavior. I'd be very surprised if doesn't do something wacky during the season.

[jung]

That is why I threw in a relative comparison. Buch has shown much better movement and location than Padiila has to this point. Doubront has shown better movement and location than Padilla has to this point.

 

Just not much there to be impressed by but used the right way, could fit into this year's Sox pen. Padilla has had the benefit of pitching some winter ball as well.

[SoxSport]

Padilla looked OK today, but that slow pitch of his doesn't always fool hitters. Reminds me of Bill Lee's

pitch that cost the Red Sox the 75 Series. You have time to adjust to those pitches if they are slow enough. Happened today.

 

I remember Williams timing one of Rip Sewell's slow ones (the "eephus") and hitting it into the Sox bullpen.

[a700hitter]

Padilla looked OK today, but that slow pitch of his doesn't always fool hitters. Reminds me of Bill Lee's

pitch that cost the Red Sox the 75 Series. You have time to adjust to those pitches if they are slow enough. Happened today.

 

I remember Williams timing one of Rip Sewell's slow ones (the "eephus") and hitting it into the Sox bullpen.

Unless someone starts the season on the DL, I can't see that there is any room for him on the staff that comes north.

[Elktonnick]

Padilla looked OK today, but that slow pitch of his doesn't always fool hitters. Reminds me of Bill Lee's

pitch that cost the Red Sox the 75 Series. You have time to adjust to those pitches if they are slow enough. Happened today.

 

I remember Williams timing one of Rip Sewell's slow ones (the "eephus") and hitting it into the Sox bullpen.

 

Lee's problem was he threw it three times to the same hitter.

[kapsis21]

even though i voted for Padilla i now feel Doubront is getting ready to take that spot. and he might rather be the 4th starter. Last spot would be up for grabs and even though Aceves in ST is showing great poise, he is more valuable in the bullpen.

that leaves Bard Cook Padilla and Miller, Bard needs to be in the bullpen plain and simple. i dont see him in starting rotation come opening day.

and out of the 3 one of them for sure is not making to opening day and my guess would be Cook.

anyone know status on Bobby Jenks and Rich Hill?

[kapsis21]

^^ holy crap i read about Bobby Jenks ...did not see that coming.

[SoxSport]

Lee's problem was he threw it three times to the same hitter.

 

yeah. Perez took a nap waiting for the pitch, and then hit it into the screen. It wouldn't have surprised a Little Leaguer.

[jopete19]

A tweet from Ken Rosenthal,

 

"Still hear #Tigers, #RedSox most serious on Lannan. Two issues: #Nationals' desire to clear Lannan's entire $5M and LHP's blah spring. #MLB"

 

Really John Lannan???

[seabeachfred]

Padilla looked good today so Im not so sure why he didnt impress you. Good velocity, great snap to his pitches and kept the ball low. His first inning out there he labored because of am error that lead off an inning and a hit an run where the hitter hit the ball off of the ground. It was a flukey.

 

People read wayyy too much in to spring training performances. Dont look at the results, look at what they're doing and how they look doing it.

 

SCM, you hit it on the head again.......That last sentence of yours spells it right, and I was reminded of that is spades when the announcement came that Jon Lester was getting the Opening Day nod for the second year in a row. In case it escaped you he has not exactly been a bell cow in April and in his debut last year against Texas he looked pretty crappy to put it mildly. I am watching every performance of his this ST because if we ever needed him to put his past miserable Aprils behind him this year is it. Right now he is still throwing too many pitches during his stints on the mound and he has to cut them down markedly. I am also looking at Bard tomorrow. He will start the game and we can see if that piss poor performance last time out was the result of the rain delay or not. Of course, he didn't start that game so there is no basis to saying that he isn't going to cut it as a starter. Still, it did puzzle me....if BV wants to use him as a starter why didn't he start him instead of throwing him in there in a relief role?

[redsoxfan3]

An interesting statement made by Bobby V.

 

"I don't know if he is a favorite," Valentine said of Doubront. "I see him as a guy who's going to pitch for our team sometime this year. I don't know if that's at the beginning of the season or not, but he's the kind of guy that we're fortunate to have. I think there's still a step."

 

I find what he said about Doubront interesting. I really hope he wins the 5th spot, but now I am kind of concerned he might give it to Padilla or Cook. He didn't directly come out and say that Doubront will not win it, but if he feels "there's still a step" for Doubront to take, then that leads me to believe that at this point that he will not win it. We still have enough time in Spring Training to declare a 5th starter. I don't believe it will be Aceves at this point either, especially with the way Melancon pitched today. I am interested to see what happens in the next couple of weeks.

[Palodios]

Sounds like Bobby Valentine trying to light a fire on the other guys's asses.

[jung]

Sox have no options left on Doubront right? Not sure what V is talking about.

[redsoxfan3]

Correct. Doubront has no options left, which why I was kind of confused with what Bobby V was saying. There is no way in hell we send him through waivers unless we really want to part ways with him. The only thing that I can logically come up with is that if Bobby V does not think that he can be a starter in the 5th spot is that he has a role in the pen, but I am really hoping he can at least be given a shot for that 5th spot.

[a700hitter]

The fact that Doubront has no options really ties their hands. They can't send him back or some team is likely to claim him. His command at the beginning of games is so poor that he can't be trusted to be a reliable bullpen piece. IMO, he has the inside track on the rotation spot, but he has to improve his command. I would have been less discouraged yesterday if he had trouble with his command in the early innings but was able to gather himself and work out of the jams. That is not what happened. He avoided big damage with a lucky strike'em out throw'em out double play as the result of batter's interference. In his entire outing he didn't look sharp -- not even for 1 inning.

 

Melancon was very very disappointing. I am not basing this on the result of this appearance. I am basing this purely on his stuff. It is nothing special... period. His stuff is not intimidating, not does he have an intimidating presence on the mound. The step down in caliber from Bard is enormous. Get ready for lots of heart attacks in the late innings. Lots of them.

[jung]

Based on what you have seen 700 do you think there is a chance that the Sox are going to be left having to give serious consideration to Aceves in the rotation and Bard back to the pen based on the premise that the role Bard has already filled, 8th inning set up is both critical and one where the Sox really do not have a current answer?

 

Once again I suspect that if this becomes a consideration Doubront's status plays a role as I think if he can really nail down a spot in the rotation, then maybe the Sox would feel more comfortable moving Bard back to the pen. To me 1,2 3 in the rotation is obvious as it is I am sure to everybody else. Then I keep thinking that everything else tends to work off of Doubront. Does he barely make it into the rotation as the lesser of several evils or does he make it in solidly even given consideration as the 4.....just as an example.

 

I should add that my expectations for a 5 are not very high as starters go. My expectations for a 4 are much higher.

[jung]

Another point I should make that might sound harsh is that I don't think I have seen the 4 in this rotation yet. We have sort of bequeathed the 4 to Bard but he has not as yet earned it based on performance at least from what I have seen. Remember we are going to hand this guy the ball every fourth start.

 

Please do not give me the argument that we handed Lackey the ball every fourth start last year. I am not looking for a minor upgrade to that experience....a guy that as it turned out had a slinky for an arm as he was setting up for TJ.

 

In my view at least to date, we have given Bard the spot because we have no alternative but to give him the spot. That is not as yet particularly comforting.

 

I also agree that expecting dice back in June is wayyyyyy optimistic. Once he actually rehabs the first thing dice will have to do is figure out what he has for an arm post TJ. It is not like the arm goes back to what it was before TJ. That is actually pretty rare I think. It will be a situation where he applies what he knows to his new arm and figures out what he has. August sounds more plausible to me than June.

[seabeachfred]

The fact that Doubront has no options really ties their hands. They can't send him back or some team is likely to claim him. His command at the beginning of games is so poor that he can't be trusted to be a reliable bullpen piece. IMO, he has the inside track on the rotation spot, but he has to improve his command. I would have been less discouraged yesterday if he had trouble with his command in the early innings but was able to gather himself and work out of the jams. That is not what happened. He avoided big damage with a lucky strike'em out throw'em out double play as the result of batter's interference. In his entire outing he didn't look sharp -- not even for 1 inning.

 

Melancon was very very disappointing. I am not basing this on the result of this appearance. I am basing this purely on his stuff. It is nothing special... period. His stuff is not intimidating, not does he have an intimidating presence on the mound. The step down in caliber from Bard is enormous. Get ready for lots of heart attacks in the late innings. Lots of them.

 

Good job my friend---lay it on the line. We need some real honesty and terse reality when speaking of our chances and our pitching staff this season. Apparently you were less than impressed and from reading the stats it appears that neither Doubrant or Melancon distinguished themselves in any way. What is really alarming is that Doub just couldn't get untracked. Pitchers can get off to a shaky start but the good ones can right the ship. He never did that. As for Melancon, you saw it with your own eyes. I just wonder if it was just a bad trip for both of them or whether we are going to chew our nails down to the nub every time these two toe the rubber.

 

Jung hit it right---we may be forced to put Aceves in the rotation whether we like it or not. Today Bard goes....and he has to step up and show he has what it takes to be a No. 4starter. His pratfall last time out was in relief---a strange move by BV. Today there can be no excuses. He has to make his pitches and get the job done. As for Doubrant, I'm getting tired of hearing about his upsides. He needs to kick himself in the ass and bear down. Thanks for the report Ted. Hey, use your influence to get some better performances today so we can hear some good news tonight. And enjoy your time there.

[jung]

And no I don't find Oswalt a comforting option either. In the first place the 4 seems up in the air at the moment and Oswalt is no 4 at this stage of his career. As this offseason and ST has moved apace, the lack of interest in Oswalt gets me closer and closer to a forced retirement in his case unless somebody brings him in out of what we are going to be calling "desperation". Nothing comforting about the word desperation.

[redsoxfan3]

Good job my friend---lay it on the line. We need some real honesty and terse reality when speaking of our chances and our pitching staff this season. Apparently you were less than impressed and from reading the stats it appears that neither Doubrant or Melancon distinguished themselves in any way. What is really alarming is that Doub just couldn't get untracked. Pitchers can get off to a shaky start but the good ones can right the ship. He never did that. As for Melancon, you saw it with your own eyes. I just wonder if it was just a bad trip for both of them or whether we are going to chew our nails down to the nub every time these two toe the rubber.

 

Jung hit it right---we may be forced to put Aceves in the rotation whether we like it or not. Today Bard goes....and he has to step up and show he has what it takes to be a No. 4starter. His pratfall last time out was in relief---a strange move by BV. Today there can be no excuses. He has to make his pitches and get the job done. As for Doubrant, I'm getting tired of hearing about his upsides. He needs to kick himself in the ass and bear down. Thanks for the report Ted. Hey, use your influence to get some better performances today so we can hear some good news tonight. And enjoy your time there.

 

That actually could work out for the best. I think we would be okay with Aceves in the rotation as long as Bard is in the pen. We would be able to get by with Bard, Melancon, and Bailey. Thank you for the insight on Melancon, 700. It is unfortunate to hear that. Hopefully he is still just trying to get in the groove because it is Spring Training. I know he was a closer for a lousy Astros team last year, but nonetheless he still had 20 saves (correct me if I am wrong). Hopefully he can show us that he is going to be a reliable set-up man or at least a reliable bullpen asset. I think Aceves could thrive in a starting role, but I see him excelling no matter where he pitches for this team. It is time for the pitchers to really step up their game.

[RedSoxNC84]

That actually could work out for the best. I think we would be okay with Aceves in the rotation as long as Bard is in the pen. We would be able to get by with Bard' date=' Melancon, and Bailey. Thank you for the insight on Melancon, 700. It is unfortunate to hear that. Hopefully he is still just trying to get in the groove because it is Spring Training. I know he was a closer for a lousy Astros team last year, but nonetheless he still had 20 saves (correct me if I am wrong). Hopefully he can show us that he is going to be a reliable set-up man or at least a reliable bullpen asset. I think Aceves could thrive in a starting role, but I see him excelling no matter where he pitches for this team. It is time for the pitchers to really step up their game.[/quote']

 

I still see the rotation as Bard and Doubront rouding it out. I still believe Aceves will be the long reliever and spot starter. I honestly think Melancon will be just fine as the set up man, but it never hurts to have a backup plan either. That's the question though, who would be the set up man if Melancon tanks?

[redsoxfan3]

Padilla has a hamstring injury. There is no word on how long he will be out because it is so early on in the injury. If anything, it certainly will not help him trying to make the big league roster. Melancon was also working on his secondary pitches yesterday. Let's just hope his secondary pitches are where they need to be when the season starts. Morales is going to make his first appearance tomorrow night.