The Venting Thread

[a700hitter]

Being an ace is about being a stopper when your team is in freefall. That's exactly what he did in April. How was he supposed to know at the beginning of September that his team was going to completely collapse around him?

If he was clutch maybe he would have pitched a complete game shutout or gone 8 innings.

[Palodios]

Lets look at what Lester did in September more closely. He had six starts and lasted more than six innings twice when he lasted seven innings each time. In half of his starts he last 5, 4, and 2.2 innings. Against the Yankees and the Rays he was 0 and 4 in September. He surrendered at least four runs in half his start. He won just once in September and lost five times. His ERA was over 5.

Thats not the profile of an ace on my team.

 

Who cares? None of those games mattered, until it was too late. We're not talking about playoff games, or elimination games, we're talking about games that didn't matter until Mr. Hindsight came along. When the season was on the line, he pumped out a quality start.

[Palodios]

If he was clutch maybe he would have pitched a complete game shutout or gone 8 innings.

 

You're hopeless.

[Palodios]

Lets look at what Lester did in September more closely. He had six starts and lasted more than six innings twice when he lasted seven innings each time. In half of his starts he last 5, 4, and 2.2 innings. Against the Yankees and the Rays he was 0 and 4 in September. He surrendered at least four runs in half his start. He won just once in September and lost five times. His ERA was over 5.

Thats not the profile of an ace on my team.

 

Also, way to completely ignore my post.

[a700hitter]

You're hopeless.

What do you want from me. I agree with you that he is a very good pitcher, a top pitcher, a very valuable commodity, but this season he can claim to have been clutch. Clutch pitchers hand the ball directly to the closer with the lead. He didn't go deep into crucial games. That ain't clutch. If you think that he was clutch, your standards must be very low.

[FredLynn]

Also' date=' way to completely ignore my post.[/quote']

 

That 5.40 is dependent solely on one bad start. He pitched his team to a point where they were 9 games up on the wild card. You can't blame him for taking it easy while getting ready for the playoffs-- which was what he was working towards, not a pile of starts in September that seemed meaningless at the time.

 

Every "ace" goes through bad streaks as well. Cliff Lee is 0-3 in his last three playoff starts. Sabathia has had some absolutely terrible starts. Felix Hernandez has NEVER pitched in a high leverage situation so if we're talking about clutch, he shouldn't even be in the conversation. Halladay and Lincecum made their first playoff appearances last year, so its not exactly like its a huge sample size for them either. Wainright has pitched exactly one game as a starter in the playoffs.

 

Face it. Lester had one s***** start. You can't say he's a bad clutch performer based on just that. Look at your list. The majority of them have either small sample sizes, or have pitched only in the NL.

 

There. Is that better?

His ERA was NOT due to one bad start: it was due to three bad starts out of six. Turned out that his September starts were not really meaningless after all, since we had clinched nothing during any of them. Had he pitched well and won just three of his six starts (instead of losing FIVE of them-aces outpitch their counterparts) we would be in the playoffs.

While I don't disagree with you that every player in the game goes through bad streaks, Lester this year has been a model of inconsistency and failed his team when they needed him the most. He had lots of company.

I wasn't ignoring your post; I was DISAGREEING with most of it. The numbers are simply not on your side. Lester wasn't even the best SP on our team this year.

[Palodios]

His ERA was NOT due to one bad start: it was due to three bad starts out of six.

 

Without that one start, he had a 3.41 ERA in September. Boohoo.

[FredLynn]

Without that one start' date=' he had a 3.41 ERA in September. Boohoo.[/quote']

 

I would counter that his 5+ ERA would have been worse had he not tossed a game where he gave up no runs in 7 innings and another one where he gave up one run in five innings.

In three of his six decisions in September his prospective ERA was: 9, 5.14, and 32.7. Which of those three games do you feel he pitched like an ace in?

 

Boohoo.

[a700hitter]

Without that one start' date=' he had a 3.41 ERA in September. Boohoo.[/quote']Cliff Lee started 5 games in September. If you drop his worst start, he has a 1.13 ERA with 4 quality starts and 2 complete games. If you count his worst start, his ERA would jump to 1.42 and all of his 5 starts were quality starts. That's how an ace pitches in September.

[Palodios]

I would counter that his 5+ ERA would have been worse had he not tossed a game where he gave up no runs in 7 innings and another one where he gave up one run in five innings.

In three of his six decisions in September his prospective ERA was: 9, 5.14, and 32.7. Which of those three games do you feel he pitched like an ace in?

 

Boohoo.

 

That's your problem. You're saying Lester is unclutch in the big picture, but using small samples to back up your point.

 

He had an ERA of 0, 1.8 and 3 for the other three starts. See? I can do it too.

[FredLynn]

Cliff Lee started 5 games in September. If you drop his worst start' date=' he has a 1.13 ERA with 4 quality starts and 2 complete games. If you count his worst start, his ERA would jump to 1.42 and all of his 5 starts were quality starts. That's how an ace pitches in September.[/quote']

 

There are some aces in baseball. Jon Lester is no ace. He isn't even the ace of his own team.

[Palodios]

Cliff Lee started 5 games in September. If you drop his worst start' date=' he has a 1.13 ERA with 4 quality starts and 2 complete games. If you count his worst start, his ERA would jump to 1.42 and all of his 5 starts were quality starts. That's how an ace pitches in September.[/quote']

 

Are you talking about the same Cliff Lee that let the Cardinals score five runs on him Sunday?

[Palodios]

There are some aces in baseball. Jon Lester is no ace. He isn't even the ace of his own team.

 

Wait, are we talking about the same Cliff Lee that went 0-2 in the NLCS last year with 9 ER in 11.2 innings?

[FredLynn]

That's your problem. You're saying Lester is unclutch in the big picture, but using small samples to back up your point.

 

He had an ERA of 0, 1.8 and 3 for the other three starts. See? I can do it too.

 

Aces do better when it really matters than to lay an egg for half of his starts when his team really needs him to show up.

Lester is a good pitcher; I am glad he is on our team. He is our #2 SP, but he is certainly not an ace. Beckett was our ace this year.

Lester: 15-9, 3.47 (17th in the AL)

Beckett: 13-7, 2.89 (5th in the AL)

These numbers are not small sample sizes.

 

Beckett was our ace this year, not Lester. Lester isn't even an ace on his own team.

[FredLynn]

Good debate..gotta split for the sunset run.

[a700hitter]

Wait' date=' are we talking about the same Cliff Lee that went 0-2 in the NLCS last year with 9 ER in 11.2 innings?[/quote']Yes, that Cliff Lee with the 7-3 post season record and a 2.52 ERA with 3 complete games. Yes, him.

[iortiz]

Lee>> Lester

 

Lester is a great pitcher, but ain't an ace. An ace doesn't s*** the bed back to back to back starts in crucial moments. Hell, one of those awful September nights would have represented the POs.

[Palodios]

Aces do better when it really matters than to lay an egg for half of his starts when his team really needs him to show up.

Lester is a good pitcher; I am glad he is on our team. He is our #2 SP, but he is certainly not an ace. Beckett was our ace this year.

Lester: 15-9, 3.47 (17th in the AL)

Beckett: 13-7, 2.89 (5th in the AL)

These numbers are not small sample sizes.

 

Beckett was our ace this year, not Lester. Lester isn't even an ace on his own team.

 

This is the best season of Beckett's career, and the worst full season of Lester's. Ofcourse Beckett's numbers will be better. If you want to go with large sample sizes, go with career numbers

 

Beckett -- 4.05 ERA career with the Red Sox.

Lester -- 3.53 ERA career with the Red Sox.

[iortiz]

Aces do better when it really matters than to lay an egg for half of his starts when his team really needs him to show up.

Lester is a good pitcher; I am glad he is on our team. He is our #2 SP, but he is certainly not an ace. Beckett was our ace this year.

Lester: 15-9, 3.47 (17th in the AL)

Beckett: 13-7, 2.89 (5th in the AL)

These numbers are not small sample sizes.

 

Beckett was our ace this year, not Lester. Lester isn't even an ace on his own team.

 

Yup.

 

On the other hand....Do you think that Beckett could be the same 2011-pitcher in 2012?

 

I don't know. I think he'll be somewhere at 3.5-4 ERA. We'll see

[jung]

Jon Lester is no ace. He isn't even the ace of his own team.

 

Well being the ace of the staff does usually mean you have more clutch performances than your mates. You are the stopper, the guy that stops losing streaks, bad runs of starts by the other guys etc.

 

The Sox really did not have anybody doing that this season to any great degree which supports those that have suggested that at best the Sox had three number 2 starters. I would suggest they did not have a number 4 starter with no dice. They had a number 5 in Wake and a number 5.5 in Lackey.

 

Wake is the only guy that performed close to expectation. We did not expect much from Wake and we got just about what we expected.

 

I don't remember Buckholtz pitching up to expectation before he went down but he was probably closer than our other number 2s'.

 

Beckett pitched reasonably well I thought under his particular set of circumstances but he still underperformed to expectation.

 

Lester performed a bit less well than Beckett when compared to our expectations for him.

 

Lackey was spectacular in his underperformance to expectation. But I would think the entire starting staff underperforming as this one did this year is pretty rare. You have five guys that span age brackets, have different throwing styles, different demeanors on the mound are at different stages in their careers and they all underperformed. Got to be something there that we are missing.

[VA Sox Fan]

Well being the ace of the staff does usually mean you have more clutch performances than your mates. You are the stopper, the guy that stops losing streaks, bad runs of starts by the other guys etc.

 

The Sox really did not have anybody doing that this season to any great degree which supports those that have suggested that at best the Sox had three number 2 starters. I would suggest they did not have a number 4 starter with no dice. They had a number 5 in Wake and a number 5.5 in Lackey.

 

Wake is the only guy that performed close to expectation. We did not expect much from Wake and we got just about what we expected.

 

I don't remember Buckholtz pitching up to expectation before he went down but he was probably closer than our other number 2s'.

 

Beckett pitched reasonably well I thought under his particular set of circumstances but he still underperformed to expectation.

 

Lester performed a bit less well than Beckett when compared to our expectations for him.

 

Lackey was spectacular in his underperformance to expectation. But I would think the entire starting staff underperforming as this one did this year is pretty rare. You have five guys that span age brackets, have different throwing styles, different demeanors on the mound are at different stages in their careers and they all underperformed. Got to be something there that we are missing.

 

Really?

 

Just sayin'

[iortiz]

Just like the narrator said... Aces and legends are born in October. I would say, little bit earlier.

[jung]

Maybe it is just me. I thought Lester would pitch much like he did last year but would have shown modest improvement and that this would be a year of consistent superior pitching from Buckholtz....sort of a breakout year for Buckholtz in that regard. Even in the year of his no hitter I did not think he pitched enough innings to call that a breakout year. To me at the start of the year there was every bit the chance that Lester and Buckholtz would compete for the position but that Buckholtz would emerge as the staff ace, the true stopper, even if the other guys had not stumbled and maybe he would have gotten there without the injury. I just did not think he was having that sort of season.

 

Given how the rest of them pitched there is no doubt in my mind that we would have been saying that Buckholtz pitched better than the rest of them had he continued. But just to try to explain where I am coming from, if the other guys pitched to what we thought their potential was at the beginning of the season I thought there was every chance that we would have been saying Wow, Buckholtz was the best of them this year with emphasis on the Wow. I thought things were sort of set up that way for Buckholtz this year. I did not think he was pitching like that when he went down to injury.

 

To be honest i have bee looking forward to something a little like the Braves had with Glavin and Smoltz and Maddux vying for the spot at the top only in our case with Lester battling with Buckholtz. Some years Lester winning out and others Buckholtz winning out. Oh well probably another of my Sox pipe dreams.

[VA Sox Fan]

Maybe it is just me. I thought Lester would pitch much like he did last year but would have shown modest improvement and that this would be a year of consistent superior pitching from Buckholtz....sort of a breakout year for Buckholtz in that regard. Even in the year of his no hitter I did not think he pitched enough innings to call that a breakout year. To me at the start of the year there was every bit the chance that Lester and Buckholtz would compete for the position but that Buckholtz would emerge as the staff ace, the true stopper, even if the other guys had not stumbled and maybe he would have gotten there without the injury. I just did not think he was having that sort of season.

 

Given how the rest of them pitched there is no doubt in my mind that we would have been saying that Buckholtz pitched better than the rest of them had he continued. But just to try to explain where I am coming from, if the other guys pitched to what we thought their potential was at the beginning of the season I thought there was every chance that we would have been saying Wow, Buckholtz was the best of them this year with emphasis on the Wow. I thought things were sort of set up that way for Buckholtz this year. I did not think he was pitching like that when he went down to injury.

 

To be honest i have bee looking forward to something a little like the Braves had with Glavin and Smoltz and Maddux vying for the spot at the top only in our case with Lester battling with Buckholtz. Some years Lester winning out and others Buckholtz winning out. Oh well probably another of my Sox pipe dreams.

 

FYI it's Buchholz

[SoxSport]

I'm reading stories where Farrell required workouts between starts for pitchers. Young did not.

Could have been a factor in their drop in pitching stats.

[VA Sox Fan]

I'm reading stories where Farrell required workouts between starts for pitchers. Young did not.

Could have been a factor in their drop in pitching stats.

 

Could have. But that was 2011 Red Sox. Nothing can be done about it now. Move on to 2012 and hope the things that are broken get fixed.

[FredLynn]

This is the best season of Beckett's career, and the worst full season of Lester's. Ofcourse Beckett's numbers will be better. If you want to go with large sample sizes, go with career numbers

 

Beckett -- 4.05 ERA career with the Red Sox.

Lester -- 3.53 ERA career with the Red Sox.

 

I thought we were discussing THIS year. Over his career its clear that Lester has been better. This year he was not the ace of the team, and as I said, I don't care what happened in 2010.

Frankly, neither guy is what we need for a #1 IMO. Both are very good #2s for a playoff team hoping for a ring.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Nobody on this team pitched like an ace this year, period. But that doesn't mean that Lester isn't an ace pitcher. It just means that he had a down year.

 

No pitcher on this team threw more than 195 innings. That's freaking pathetic.

 

Actually, I take it back. We did have an ace. Alfredo Aceves. And that's not a pun on his nickname. He was the absolute ace of this pitching staff, plain and simple, MVP of the Red Sox pitching. No doubt in my mind.

[a700hitter]

Nobody on this team pitched like an ace this year, period. But that doesn't mean that Lester isn't an ace pitcher. It just means that he had a down year.

 

No pitcher on this team threw more than 195 innings. That's freaking pathetic.

 

Actually, I take it back. We did have an ace. Alfredo Aceves. And that's not a pun on his nickname. He was the absolute ace of this pitching staff, plain and simple, MVP of the Red Sox pitching. No doubt in my mind.

He is ace-capable, but he reverted to his old habits of working slowly. nibbling and throwing too many pitches. When he picked up the tempo in 2008, he turned a corner and his career took off.