9/27 @ Orioles

[Palodios]

The major difference is that after 2006 the Red Sox had Pedroia on the way together with Lester and Ellsbury. Lester admittedly didn't do much in 2007' date=' but he was mid-season depth. I n 2008, all three were productive full time major leaguers. I don't see that influx of talent coming to the Sox in 2012.[/quote']

 

The Red Sox are finally getting a wave of their better prospects into upper leagues. Iggy, Kalish, Lavarnway, Doubront, Middlebrooks, Bowden and Wilson could all see playing time in 2012, and they all have potential.

[a700hitter]

The Red Sox are finally getting a wave of their better prospects into upper leagues. Iggy' date=' Kalish, Lavarnway, Doubront, Middlebrooks, Bowden and Wilson could all see playing time in 2012, and they all have potential.[/quote']Bowden .. really? I don't think he will contribute much beyond the role that he has filled up to this point in his career. Dubront has problems staying healthy and his prospect rating has declined. Iggy still can't hit. Kalish has lost a whole year of development. Middlebrooks? We'll see, but next season is probably premature. Larvarnway-- I am hopeful, although he'll probably be a backup.

 

It doesn't compare to the crop of Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester and Buchholz who were ready to make the transition in 2007. You haven't come up with the name of a single promising pitcher.

[Palodios]

Bowden .. really? I don't think he will contribute much beyond the role that he has filled up to this point in his career. Dubront has problems staying healthy and his prospect rating has declined. Iggy still can't hit. Kalish has lost a whole year of development. Middlebrooks? We'll see, but next season is probably premature. Larvarnway-- I am hopeful, although he'll probably be a backup.

 

It doesn't compare to the crop of Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester and Buchholz who were ready to make the transition in 2007. You haven't come up with the name of a single promising pitcher.

 

So your argument is that... the class of prospects that came up in 2007 was so good that everything else is a failure? Comparing Theo to Theo is not a productive argument when your goal is proving that Theo is not a good manager. Why not put faith into him that the one thing that he does do exceptionally well--drafting-- is going to continue to be a strength for him moving forward?

[Palodios]

Bowden .. really? I don't think he will contribute much beyond the role that he has filled up to this point in his career. Dubront has problems staying healthy and his prospect rating has declined. Iggy still can't hit. Kalish has lost a whole year of development. Middlebrooks? We'll see' date=' but next season is probably premature. Larvarnway-- I am hopeful, although he'll probably be a backup.[/quote']

 

Bowden will be a reliever-- he seems to have transitioned to that position well, and has a 2.40 ERA at AAA, which is much better than it was as a starter.

 

Wilson will start 2012 in AAA, and has a 3.10ish ERA between AA and AAA as a starter this year. He needs more time, but he could help the team moving forward.

 

Simply put, the biggest addition to the rotation will be Buchholz-- another guy that Theo drafted.

[iortiz]

That actually wasn't meant as a defense of Theo. It was a defense of the entire club. You guys take my preference for Theo too far. I didn't mention him or the FO once. I was specifically writing about those who have been on the ledge, ranting about the team not being worth watching the past few seasons, etc., I think it is reactionary. This club is filled with very talented elite players and I won't be surprised at all if next season the core of this team wins the World Series. People act like the team itself is a complete disaster, as if it couldn't possibly get worse.

 

With very little memory usage, most of us should be able to recall a time when it WAS much worse. No playoffs. No pennant race. Few allstars. I'm grateful to have a club that competes year after year. Apparently I shouldn't be.

 

I remember posting something similar after the disappointing 2006 finish. In 2007 the same core of a team won the World Series. I think this core is considerably better.

 

Well, you posted this:

 

I just want to make the point that the team the Sox are competing with here is GOOD. People like to spend plenty of time talking about how the Sox can barely beat a team with less payroll, etc., but the fact of the matter is that payroll aside, the Rays are a very, very good team. They have been for a few years.

 

And then I just quoted this :

 

Low payroll + good/expected results = good management ; high payroll + poor/unexpected results = poor management

 

In which part I'm wrong?... and then you went deeper with this:

 

I suggest--not that my thoughts matter--that people climb off the ledge, not base the entire success of this team and franchise on a single game, and ask yourself if you are happy with this franchise as a fan it not. Has it given you lots of menoriable and thrilling moments? If the season ends today are you going to give up on the team forever or will you be right here, rooting for them if they are in a one game playoff at this time next year? I think I know the answer because I have seen so many of you here for years.

 

Let's hope the sox pull it off this season, but if they don't then ask yourself if you would prefer to be a fan of another big market team more. I suspect most of you are hooked on the sox like i am.

 

I don't get it E1. As I said, I tried to be objective.

[Palodios]

I don't get it E1. As I said' date=' I tried to be objective.[/quote']

 

The problem is very simple. For you "Poor" == not winning a world series. That is not objective. The objective logic: "Poor"= losing more games than you win. Being in the top 10% of baseball teams for ten years is not objectively "poor". If you believe that this team's performance has been poor in light of expectations, that's absolutely fine-- but that is an opinion, and subjective, not objective.

[iortiz]

Let's be objective then.

 

1) Theo has drafted Ellsbury, Lester, Pedroia, Buchholz, Bard.... that's a massive haul, especially considering what he has had to work with for first round draft picks.

 

2) Some of the other prospects he's drafted have gone into trades for marque players like Victor Martinez, Adrian Gonzalez, Jason Bay. With the exception of Gagne, he has an incredible track record when it comes to giving up prospects for big players.

 

3) Theo's teams have had the 3rd most wins in the majors since he has been around.

 

4) Theo has won two world series titles.

 

5) Theo has found many good diamond-in-the-rough players.

 

Cons

 

1) Has failed to provide depth in the starting rotation.

 

2) Has a very bad track record with expensive free agents.

 

3) He cannot build a good bullpen to save his life.

 

 

Feel free to add any if you want. Many of us are seeing the pros and cons, and believe it goes significantly in his favor.

 

I think that our argument has been constantly clear about this issue through several threads. Our time frame has been the last 3 years. IMO enough period of time in order to make another check point. If we take that period of time, almost all the good things that you enlisted would vanish and only the cons. list would appear, and that, is the core of our argument.

 

I'm not taking away his credit, as I said, he is arguably a good manager and has achieved important things in Boston and I'm grateful for the 2 WS but we can't live forever in the past. Neither organization does.

 

We have been saying as well that if we don't make POs or if we play like September (likely) once there, we would have seen enough in order to make a diligence and bring someone else.

 

I think that A700 and I have tried to be objective and consistent about this, considering our premises plenty discussed.

 

Bottom line. The period of time is what make us see different the whole thing in order to emit our opinions. We take the last three years and you guys the last ten, that's all. We are focus in the tendency and you in the history, IMO.

[iortiz]

The problem is very simple. For you "Poor" == not winning a world series. That is not objective. The objective logic: "Poor"= losing more games than you win. Being in the top 10% of baseball teams for ten years is not objectively "poor". If you believe that this team's performance has been poor in light of expectations' date=' that's absolutely fine-- but that is an opinion, and subjective, not objective.[/quote']

 

Look above Pal. The name of the game is the time frame.

[a700hitter]

So your argument is that... the class of prospects that came up in 2007 was so good that everything else is a failure? Comparing Theo to Theo is not a productive argument when your goal is proving that Theo is not a good manager. Why not put faith into him that the one thing that he does do exceptionally well--drafting-- is going to continue to be a strength for him moving forward?

Now you are twisting things again. Please stop doing that. I compared the class of 2007 to the current crop not to prove any of the things you are saying or "comparing Theo to Theo". I brought up the 2007 class to address E1's post regarding his confidence in the 2011 team has a strong core as did the 2006 team. I pointed out that the 2006 had an infusion of farm talent that the 2011 team cannot expect. Try to stay on topic.

[a700hitter]

Bowden will be a reliever-- he seems to have transitioned to that position well, and has a 2.40 ERA at AAA, which is much better than it was as a starter.

 

Wilson will start 2012 in AAA, and has a 3.10ish ERA between AA and AAA as a starter this year. He needs more time, but he could help the team moving forward.

 

Simply put, the biggest addition to the rotation will be Buchholz-- another guy that Theo drafted.

Buchholz is part of the current core.

[Palodios]

Now you are twisting things again. Please stop doing that. I compared the class of 2007 to the current crop not to prove any of the things you are saying or "comparing Theo to Theo". I brought up the 2007 class to address E1's post regarding his confidence in the 2011 team has a strong core as did the 2006 team. I pointed out that the 2006 had an infusion of farm talent that the 2011 team cannot expect. Try to stay on topic.

 

My bad.

[Palodios]

Bottom line. The period of time is what make us see different the whole thing in order to emit our opinions. We take the last three years and you guys the last ten' date=' that's all. We are focus in the tendency and you in the history, IMO. [/quote']

 

That's definitely a good point. The last three years have not been pretty. But you can't completely reject the last ten years, because Theo drafted/traded for the entire core of players during that time, and baseball teams take time to build. A-gon, Pedroia, Buchholz, Bard, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Reddick, Aceves... It is an impressive list, and it seems like the gap in prospects seems to be the biggest problem with this team-- hopefully that will be resolved in 2012 when they start flowing in again.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

I'm going to the game tomorrow' date=' we better not f***ing lose.[/quote']

 

Have fun.

[example1]

The major difference is that after 2006 the Red Sox had Pedroia on the way together with Lester and Ellsbury. Lester admittedly didn't do much in 2007' date=' but he was mid-season depth. I n 2008, all three were productive full time major leaguers. I don't see that influx of talent coming to the Sox in 2012.[/quote']

 

I could see Lavarnway, Kalish and Iglesias all having substantial contributions to the 2012 club. Kalish has already done the up-and-down period in 2010, Lavarnway is ready to hit in the majors now, and Iglesias's glove would certainly be adequate at the MLB level at a glove-heavy position.

 

Further, all three play at positions with openings.

 

We can check in a year or two from now, but I think it would be foolish to think this club doesn't have impact young talent ready to contribute.

[example1]

That's definitely a good point. The last three years have not been pretty. But you can't completely reject the last ten years' date=' because Theo drafted/traded for the entire core of players during that time, and baseball teams take time to build. A-gon, Pedroia, Buchholz, Bard, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Reddick, Aceves... It is an impressive list, and it seems like the gap in prospects seems to be the biggest problem with this team-- hopefully that will be resolved in 2012 when they start flowing in again.[/quote']

 

You're corresponding with one of the biggest advocates for training substantial young talent for established MLB talent, generally as a rule. A700 loves the win-now perspective.

 

I watched Hagadone pitch a bit yesterday. We know what Masterson has become. Both would likely have been options for this years club, certainly Masterson wouldn't have hurt.

 

The Sox made trades with the guys who would have come up. In the past, when Theo refused to do that (and benefited from the influx of young talent) people were criticizing him for not making the big deal.

[iortiz]

Sometimes I think E1 would rather cut off a limb than to criticize Theo. I don't think he is being very objective about it' date=' and his suggestion in his post is sort of like if you don't like it find another team, but I know you won't, so live with it. I don't get it. We are assessing and analyzing the record of the GM and discussing whether the team is better with him or without him. I think we are being very objective. [b']Theo's record - not just wins and losses- has not been great on a number of fronts over the last 3 years, and I can't think of 1 aspect where his performance has been excellent. [/b] With regard to this season, most people think Theo is significantly responsible for this collapse.

 

That's exactly what we have been talking about. IMO The 2 WS already won 4 and 7 years ago don't guarantee him a lifetime job as a GM of this organization. As I said, we look at tendencies and we point at the facts, and they at history.

 

BTW I won't find another team

[a700hitter]

I could see Lavarnway, Kalish and Iglesias all having substantial contributions to the 2012 club. Kalish has already done the up-and-down period in 2010, Lavarnway is ready to hit in the majors now, and Iglesias's glove would certainly be adequate at the MLB level at a glove-heavy position.

 

Further, all three play at positions with openings.

 

We can check in a year or two from now, but I think it would be foolish to think this club doesn't have impact young talent ready to contribute.

Igleisas has shown no ability to hit. Lavarnway has shown no ability to play defense. But most telling is the fact that you can't name any pitchers that could help in the near term.

[a700hitter]

You're corresponding with one of the biggest advocates for training substantial young talent for established MLB talent' date=' generally as a rule. A700 loves the win-now perspective.[/quote']When you spend $174 million on payroll, you should win now

 

The Sox made trades with the guys who would have come up. In the past' date=' when Theo refused to do that (and benefited from the influx of young talent) people were criticizing him for not making the big deal.[/quote']How many times have we heard from people on this forum that Theo would not sacrifice the future to win now. Well, he's managed to provide us with the worst of both worlds. We are not winning now, and the future has no bright stars in the near horizon.

[iortiz]

That's definitely a good point. The last three years have not been pretty. But you can't completely reject the last ten years' date=' because Theo drafted/traded for the entire core of players during that time, and baseball teams take time to build. A-gon, Pedroia, Buchholz, Bard, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Reddick, Aceves... It is an impressive list, and it seems like the gap in prospects seems to be the biggest problem with this team-- hopefully that will be resolved in 2012 when they start flowing in again.[/quote']

 

Exactly. Assuming that you won't give him a lifetime as GM, What else in your opinion, you need to see in order to make a move? A700 and I said that if we fail this year again, we would have seen enough in order to make a move (3 years).

[Palodios]

When you spend $174 million on payroll, you should win now

 

How many times have we heard from people on this forum that Theo would not sacrifice the future to win now. Well, he's managed to provide us with the worst of both worlds. We are not winning now, and the future has no bright stars in the near horizon.

 

You are overlooking the big picture. Theo's handling of free agents netted this team 9 first round draft picks in 2010-2011. Let me say that one more time. Nine first round draft picks.

[Palodios]

Exactly. Assuming that you won't give him a lifetime as GM' date=' What else in your opinion, you need to see in order to make a move? A700 and I said that if we fail this year again, we would have seen enough in order to make a move (3 years).[/quote']

 

Being a GM isn't a one or two year position. You draft players, and no one knows whether or not they turn into good players for 5-10 years. For all we know, Bowden could get Bartolo Colon surgery and win fifteen CY Young awards. But based on the facts that we see about the core of players he has built, that's why I have seen enough to keep him around.

[iortiz]

Being a GM isn't a one or two year position. You draft players' date=' and no one knows whether or not they turn into good players for 5-10 years. For all we know, Bowden could get Bartolo Colon surgery and win fifteen CY Young awards. But based on the facts that we see about the core of players he has built, that's why I have seen enough to keep him around.[/quote']

 

We put the last three years on the table. And We based the facts on that period of time.

[a700hitter]

9 years in the job is enough. I think new blood for an organization is healthy. At this time, Theo has had 3 poor years in a row. It's time to make a change. It's not a job for life. It's the Red Sox, not a very very very high paying civil service job. Debate his overall record all you want. Good bad or otherwise nine years is enough. There are always capable available people with new ideas who can improve the organization.

[Jasonbay44]

Have fun.

 

Thanks, I'm really nervous about it though, I really hope we don't lose.

[iortiz]

9 years in the job is enough. I think new blood for an organization is healthy. At this time' date=' Theo has had 3 poor years in a row. It's time to make a change. It's not a job for life. It's the Red Sox, not a very very very high paying civil service job. Debate his overall record all you want. Good bad or otherwise nine years is enough. [b']There are always capable available people with new ideas who can improve the organization[/b].

 

Exactly.

[Palodios]

9 years in the job is enough. I think new blood for an organization is healthy. At this time' date=' Theo has had 3 poor years in a row. It's time to make a change. It's not a job for life. It's the Red Sox, not a very very very high paying civil service job. Debate his overall record all you want. Good bad or otherwise nine years is enough. There are always capable available people with new ideas who can improve the organization.[/quote']

 

Remember in the offseason after the Sox lost in the 2009 playoffs, Theo had a pretty famous quote? Something about a bridge?

 

He knew the team had a prospect gap, and the organization knew it. Teams have fluctuations from year to year. It sucks. Its disappointing. It definitely got very deep under my skin both of the last two years to see my team fall apart like this. But I just don't know how you can look at the guys he's traded for, and drafted over the last three years, and believe that he hasn't done everything he could to make this team better.

[a700hitter]

Remember in the offseason after the Sox lost in the 2009 playoffs, Theo had a pretty famous quote? Something about a bridge?

 

He knew the team had a prospect gap, and the organization knew it. Teams have fluctuations from year to year. It sucks. Its disappointing. It definitely got very deep under my skin both of the last two years to see my team fall apart like this. But I just don't know how you can look at the guys he's traded for, and drafted over the last three years, and believe that he hasn't done everything he could to make this team better.

The one year bridge (2010) has turned into a 2 year bridge (2010, 2011) that is turning into a 3 year bridge as no big prospects will be hitting next years roster. Lavarnway will be a backup catcher if he makes the team and Iglesias will be a backup SS.

 

Whether or not Theo has done a good job in the last 3 years (IMO it the results are clear), IMON it's time for new blood and new ideas.

[Palodios]

“we’re kind of in a bridge period. We still think that if we push some of the right buttons' date=' we can be competitive at the very highest levels[b'] for the next two years[/b]. But we don’t want to compromise too much of the future for that competitiveness during the bridge period.’’

 

For the first time in three years, the Red Sox will have a significant number of their top prospects in the upper minors in 2012. Will they be elite players? Who knows. But atleast they will provide the kind of depth that the Red Sox severely lacked this year. The core of the team is good enough that if those prospects serve as fill-ins, they'll be good enough to help this team. The pitching needs help, but Theo has the offseason to deal with that.