This needs to be said.

[a700hitter]

I can somewhat see what the original poster is saying in that I hate when ppl talk nothing but stats. I do agree people look way to into stats and then base a player or a team off of those stats. But at the same time I think its going a little far to say this isn't the Boston Red Sox. Its just a bunch of guys wearing the jerseys..... If we make the playoffs (which we should) that is still an amazing thing to do in the MLB especially in our division with Tampa and the Yankees. Right now I don't even want to get into why the Red Sox are struggling so bad' date=' but all I know is they control their own destiny. They are in a playoff spot right now and this team is known to be streaky. If they make the playoffs they will turn everything on full blast. I don't blame anyone for being upset with the team right now, but to say this isn't the real Red Sox is a little harsh.[/quote']If the Sox hold on and go to the Playoffs and have a great post season, everything we have said above goes by the boards. The FO will get its due credit. Right now things do not look promising for a successful ending. I realize that this is a streaky team, but the problem right now is that they have only 2 pitchers. After Beckett and Lester, we have no one to take the bump.

[SCM33]

Guys like Crawford and Lackey are undealable--underperformers with big contracts.

That's the killer signing free agents. The contracts are guaranteed in MLB.

 

I don't pay much attention to those media quotes. They are most often taken out of context--in some cases, deliberately, to create or heighten conflict.

 

Lackey and Crawford is not undealable. JD Drews 14 Million dollar per year contract is coming off the books. Pay the annual money towards (14 million) towards Lackeys deal and trade him to a team willing to pay him 4 million a year. DiceK's 10 million a year contract is coming off the books next year. Ortiz's salary is potentially coming off the books. Pay 10 million dollars a year towards his deal and a team might take on Crawford for 6 years at an average of 10 million per year.

 

What would be the difference between paying those salaries off and the production we have gotten out of DiceK and Drew this year? The money is spent just the same, and they will get zero production out of paying for Lackey and Crawford to pack their s*** just the same as they got zero production out of DiceK and Drew being on the roster this year.

Again, it depends on how motivated the front office is about turning this thing around.

 

When small market teams sign bad contracts, they are stuck and screwed with them becuase he have little funds. The Sox are fully capable of getting rid of these guys.

[example1]

Lackey and Crawford is not undealable. JD Drews 14 Million dollar per year contract is coming off the books. Pay the annual money towards (14 million) towards Lackeys deal and trade him to a team willing to pay him 4 million a year. DiceK's 10 million a year contract is coming off the books next year. Ortiz's salary is potentially coming off the books. Pay 10 million dollars a year towards his deal and a team might take on Crawford for 6 years at an average of 10 million per year.

 

What would be the difference between paying those salaries off and the production we have gotten out of DiceK and Drew this year? The money is spent just the same, and they will get zero production out of paying for Lackey and Crawford to pack their s*** just the same as they got zero production out of DiceK and Drew being on the roster this year.

Again, it depends on how motivated the front office is about turning this thing around.

 

When small market teams sign bad contracts, they are stuck and screwed with them becuase he have little funds. The Sox are fully capable of getting rid of these guys.

 

This doesn't make sense to me. They should spend money to send away Crawford, the very money they free up by letting Ortiz go? Then they should plug the hole in LF with... whom? Someone with a better track record than Crawford? That player will end up costing as much if not more than Crawford because they will be using the Ortiz money and a good portion of Crawford's salary to pay for him.

 

I understand you are frustrated--and you have a right to be--but I really think it is best to focus on what might realistically happen with this team.

 

This is an instance on this team and this board where the cooler heads really must prevail. There's a lot of Chicken-littleism going on here (not just you) that really should be tempered a bit.

[SCM33]

This doesn't make sense to me. They should spend money to send away Crawford' date=' the very money they free up by letting Ortiz go? Then they should plug the hole in LF with... whom? Someone with a better track record than Crawford? That player will end up costing as much if not [i']more[/i] than Crawford because they will be using the Ortiz money and a good portion of Crawford's salary to pay for him.

 

I understand you are frustrated--and you have a right to be--but I really think it is best to focus on what might realistically happen with this team.

 

This is an instance on this team and this board where the cooler heads really must prevail. There's a lot of Chicken-littleism going on here (not just you) that really should be tempered a bit.

 

My post was not necessarily geared towards Crawford. It was towards the argument that they cannot get rid of big contracts, most specifically Lackey. They can get rid of these deals with the money they have coming off the books and the money this franchise has at its disposal.

 

I have no problem is CC stays as long as they are able to fix this club in other areas.

 

#1 priority needs to be pitching (once again). The entire bullpen needs to be blown up again minus Paps and Bard. Aceves should be in the rotation next year, which means they need another starting pitcher and 3 or 4 new bullpen arms.

 

God Theo has been terrible at building bullpens.

[example1]

This needs to be said (mostly because I just spent a few hours compiling the numbers in Excel) :

 

Since 2008, the Red Sox have averaged the THIRD most wins in baseball:

 

NYY-95.5

PHI-95

BOS-91.75

LAA-90.5

TBR-90.5

STL-87.25

TEX-86.5

MIL-84.5

ATL-84.25

LAD-84

 

 

To put that in perspective, here are the teams in their respective sports who have averaged the 3rd most wins in the game during that time:

 

NBA:

 

Los Angeles Lakers- 59

Boston Celtics-59

Orlando Magic-56

San Antonio Spurs

Dallas Mavericks

 

NHL:

San Jose Sharks- 50.3

Detroit Red Wings-49.0

Washington Capitals-48.8

Pittsburgh Penguins-47

Vancouver Canucks-46.8

 

NFL:

Patriots (12.75)

Colts (12.25)

Steelers (10.75)

Chargers (10.25)

Giants (10)

Packers (10)

Cowboys (9.75)

Saints (9.75)

Eagles (9.5)

 

College Football:

 

I gathered a list of all teams that had finished in the top 25 in the past 4 years. Then I averaged the top THREE end of season ranks for all of those teams. Using that system, the most consistently good college football teams over the past 4 years (not counting 2011, obviousy) are (with Best 3 average):

 

Ohio State--5

TCU--5

Texas--5.33

Alabama--5.66

Florida--5.66

Oklahoma--6.33

Boise State--8

Oregon--8

LSU--8.66

USC--9.33

 

 

To want to fire a team's GM because the team has 'only' managed to have the 3rd best overall record during the last 4 years seems pretty spoiled, if you ask me. I expect this team to win it all again soon, even if they have a s***** September. Yes, some moves will need to be made, but it isn't like we are starting with a really s***** team as some are arguing.

[iortiz]

Well, then let's continue another 3 years being the 3rd better record but without even win the Divisionals in the last 3 years (since we all assume that make POs is a must/obligation for this team, and not an achievement) and increasing our issues already plenty discussed which BTW I understood that we agreed charging 'em to the GM.

 

Sure, this ain't over yet, we'll see how it ends. But as I've been saying, if this team collapses and don't make the POs or go early once there like in 2009, the GM should go. I would've seen enough.

 

BTW You haven't answered my question.

[Palodios]

To want to fire a team's GM because the team has 'only' managed to have the 3rd best overall record during the last 4 years seems pretty spoiled' date=' if you ask me. I [i']expect[/i] this team to win it all again soon, even if they have a s***** September. Yes, some moves will need to be made, but it isn't like we are starting with a really s***** team as some are arguing.

 

Brilliant, brilliant post. I may sig this later.

[SoxSport]

I agree with the some of the other posters about Crawford. He is a talented guy, and he can come back. He started slowly, and got dropped to 6th in the batting order. Tito's error is he never moved him higher when he got hot. he also never used Crawford's and Ellsbury's speed properly at the top of the order. Ellsbury has 35 SB--and has stopped stealing. Gardner passed him weeks ago. Crawford has 18 SBs. Imagine--a guy who steals 60 bases a year.

 

Tito didn't adapt to the team he was given by the front office--and that's why he'll be fired--barring any turnaround by the team into the playoffs.

[wyo-sox]

I would say Crawfords lack of stolen based is not the managers fault..... I would tend to say it has more to do with the fact he never gets his but on first in order to steal second.

[a700hitter]

Brilliant' date=' brilliant post. I may sig this later.[/quote']Sig it now so we can make fun of you if Theo gets canned.

[Palodios]

I would say Crawfords lack of stolen based is not the managers fault..... I would tend to say it has more to do with the fact he never gets his but on first in order to steal second.

 

His OBP this year is down from .350 to .300. That should account for a 15% drop in stolen bases, not a 60% drop.

[Wells]

I hope the Sox back in to the playoffs and win the whole goddamn thing so all the armchair GMs and Managers here can think back at all this nonsense you're spewing while eating a big fat plate of crow.

[Palodios]

Sig it now so we can make fun of you if Theo gets canned.

 

Why? Because the front office decided to fire a GM because he fielded ONLY the third best team in the majors?

 

I think next year's offseason could be a good challenge for Theo. He is significantly better with low cost signings, and this team has very limited resources to spend. There won't be a big contract for him to screw up on, and obtaining more Aceves-type guys, and fewer Lackey-type guys would probably work better for his skills.

[a700hitter]

Why? Because the front office decided to fire a GM because he fielded ONLY the third best team in the majors?

 

I think next year's offseason could be a good challenge for Theo. He is significantly better with low cost signings, and this team has very limited resources to spend. There won't be a big contract for him to screw up on, and obtaining more Aceves-type guys, and fewer Lackey-type guys would probably work better for his skills.

Sig it now and take a risk. Don't use 20-20 hindsight and sig it afterward if the Sox pull a rabbit out of the hat in the final 6 games and get hot for the playoffs. If you think it is such a solid position, you should sig it now.

[Palodios]

Sig it now and take a risk. Don't use 20-20 hindsight and sig it afterward if the Sox pull a rabbit out of the hat in the final 6 games and get hot for the playoffs. If you think it is such a solid position' date=' you should sig it now.[/quote']

 

My current sig is "We Believe". Its not like I'm going to eat any less crow by waiting to sig E1's post until the playoffs.

[example1]

Well, then let's continue another 3 years being the 3rd better record but without even win the Divisionals in the last 3 years (since we all assume that make POs is a must/obligation for this team, and not an achievement) and increasing our issues already plenty discussed which BTW I understood that we agreed charging 'em to the GM.

 

Sure, this ain't over yet, we'll see how it ends. But as I've been saying, if this team collapses and don't make the POs or go early once there like in 2009, the GM should go. I would've seen enough.

 

BTW You haven't answered my question.

 

Given tht records are variable based on opponents and division, I would say that consistently being the 3rd best team means you are truly among the game's elite teams year after year. Take a poll of any fan about the best franchises of the 2000s and undoubtedly the Yankees, Sox, and Phillies will be in the top 5 every time.

 

What would I want to see before they make a move at GM? Probably multiple seasons where they weren't in contention for a playoffs spot by early August. Probably teams that are so bad that a "collapse" isn't even a possibility because they suck too bad all year long. Teams that are incapable of beating the Yankees and other good teams head-to-head. Certainly not a team that has the 3rd best record in the sport over the past 4 years.

 

Again, with the comparison to other sports in mind, I would need to see the team have a period of futility much closer to that of Notre Dame than that of Texas (who haven't won since 2005). If you don't follow college football, then the better comparison would be Manchester United or Real Madrid. Neither is Barcelona, but nobody would say they suck and should be entirely overhauled for an off season here or there. Have some freaking faith!

[a700hitter]

My current sig is "We Believe". Its not like I'm going to eat any less crow by waiting to sig E1's post until the playoffs.

But I doubt you will sig it if they lose 3 to the Yankees this week and the Boston papers are screaming for blood.

[a700hitter]

Let's not forget that the Sox are second in payroll and first in ticket prices over the last three years. Being third in wins doesn't seem like good value for the price.

[Palodios]

But I doubt you will sig it if they lose 3 to the Yankees this week and the Boston papers are screaming for blood.

 

You can't fire both Theo and Tito in the same year, that would create a little too much disorder in the organization. I'd start with Tito, give Theo one more year to right the ship, and see what happens from there.

[a700hitter]

You can't fire both Theo and Tito in the same year' date=' that would create a little too much disorder in the organization. I'd start with Tito, give Theo one more year to right the ship, and see what happens from there.[/quote']I agree that is usually what happens-- the field manager gets fired first. The GM usually doesn't get fired at the same time. However, firing Tito will be far from a vote of confidence for Theo. On the contrary, it will be an indication that he is on thin ice.

[example1]

Let's not forget that the Sox are second in payroll and first in ticket prices over the last three years. Being third in wins doesn't seem like good value for the price.

 

Would you be happier with a mediocre non-playoff team for half the ticket prices?

[example1]

You can't fire both Theo and Tito in the same year' date=' that would create a little too much disorder in the organization. I'd start with Tito, give Theo one more year to right the ship, and see what happens from there.[/quote']

 

What does "right the ship" mean though? Win the World Series? Get to the World Series?

 

We're talking about this as fans, not as ownership. Ownership wants there to be continued interest in the team and good revenue coming in. That's probably what's happening now.

 

Fans want a World Series or heads will roll. It's a pretty big difference.

[yeszir]

SCM's post is getting some traction on the Yankees section of reddit:

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/yankees/comments/ko9x2/i_love_watching_sux_fans_spiral_out_of_control/

[a700hitter]

Would you be happier with a mediocre non-playoff team for half the ticket prices?

No, but that doesn't change the fact that Theo has been under performing in relation to the available resources

[Palodios]

What does "right the ship" mean though? Win the World Series? Get to the World Series?

 

We're talking about this as fans, not as ownership. Ownership wants there to be continued interest in the team and good revenue coming in. That's probably what's happening now.

 

Fans want a World Series or heads will roll. It's a pretty big difference.

 

I don't know about you, but I consider this year to be a complete and utter failure for the pitching staff. I keep trying to convince myself that the rotation is very top-heavy right now, but there are just so many holes in this team's pitching.

 

Theo desperately needs to address bullpen depth in 2012. I was highly critical of the Jenks deal at the time, and it overextended the resources that were needed to be allocated to the pen on an obese closer in decline. Bard and Albers got overused, because this team simply doesn't have anyone else to setup. Papelbon's two blown saves this years were both from when they tried to pitch him multiple innings. Aceves can't get moved to the rotation because this team desperately needs him in the bullpen. Its a complete mess, and while you can blame the rotation's failures on injuries, you simply cannot do the same for the bullpen.

[iortiz]

Given tht records are variable based on opponents and division, I would say that consistently being the 3rd best team means you are truly among the game's elite teams year after year. Take a poll of any fan about the best franchises of the 2000s and undoubtedly the Yankees, Sox, and Phillies will be in the top 5 every time.

 

What would I want to see before they make a move at GM? Probably multiple seasons where they weren't in contention for a playoffs spot by early August. Probably teams that are so bad that a "collapse" isn't even a possibility because they suck too bad all year long. Teams that are incapable of beating the Yankees and other good teams head-to-head. Certainly not a team that has the 3rd best record in the sport over the past 4 years.

 

Again, with the comparison to other sports in mind, I would need to see the team have a period of futility much closer to that of Notre Dame than that of Texas (who haven't won since 2005). If you don't follow college football, then the better comparison would be Manchester United or Real Madrid. Neither is Barcelona, but nobody would say they suck and should be entirely overhauled for an off season here or there. Have some freaking faith!

 

Well, then let's wait other 3 years my friend, as I said.

 

Seriously E1, NOTHING matters if you can't even make the playoffs or go out early once there, certainly not even to have the 3rd-best-W-record or play well through the season or beat NY in the year-series or whatever excuse you want to call. As I said, this team has the Obligation to make the playoffs. This is not TB or KC baseball. You spend 180 + MiUSD in order to make the POs and go further once there. An achievement to me is making the WS, and if you rush me, win it.

 

About Soccer, your perceptions is so far away to be accurate. Seems like you don't live in a soccer country my friend. Real Madrid SUCKS, their payroll is the highest around the world and they didn't win nothing last year. They didnt win the League or the Champions (didn't even make the finals). Do you know what happened after the Barcelona's semifinals-match in the Champions? They couldn't get out of the stadium after a while due a looooot of fans wanted to throw 'em rocks, and the media went after their heads. Outcome: A lot players and Valdano (GM) gone. They are not soft like NESN, trust me. On the other hand, MU won the 2008/2009/2011 Premier league , 2008/2010/2011 FA Cup, the 2010 Football League Cup and in 2008 the Champions and they were into the finals last year (Regardless they have been in the POs last five years in a row). There's no comparison with the Boston Red Sox results. We didn't even make the POs last year, went early in 2009 and today we are in jeopardy. What are you talking about?

 

Faith? Well, I've been faithful last 3 years. I'm not masochistic. Sure, I'm not that patience as you seem to be.

[example1]

Well, then let's wait other 3 years my friend, as I said.

 

Seriously E1, NOTHING matters if you can't even make the playoffs or go out early once there, certainly not even to have the 3rd-best-W-record or play well through the season or beat NY in the year-series or whatever excuse you want to call. As I said, this team has the Obligation to make the playoffs. This is not TB or KC baseball. You spend 180 + MiUSD in order to make the POs and go further once there. An achievement to me is making the WS, and if you rush me, win it.

 

About Soccer, your perceptions is so far away to be accurate. Seems like you don't live in a soccer country my friend. Real Madrid SUCKS, their payroll is the highest around the world and they didn't win nothing last year. They didnt win the League or the Champions (didn't even make the finals). Do you know what happened after the Barcelona's semifinals-match in the Champions? They couldn't get out of the stadium after a while due a looooot of fans wanted to throw 'em rocks, and the media went after their heads. Outcome: A lot players and Valdano (GM) gone. They are not soft like NESN, trust me. On the other hand, MU won the 2008/2009/2011 Premier league , 2008/2010/2011 FA Cup, the 2010 Football League Cup and in 2008 the Champions and they were into the finals last year (Regardless they have been in the POs last five years in a row). There's no comparison with the Boston Red Sox results. We didn't even make the POs last year, went early in 2009 and today we are in jeopardy. What are you talking about?

 

Faith? Well, I've been faithful last 3 years. I'm not masochistic. Sure, I'm not that patience as you seem to be.

 

Thanks for the clarification about Real Madrid. I see them 'competing' with Barcelona and their high payroll and figure that they are a top team. I guess I was wrong.

 

MLB doesn't have the equivalent of the FA cup, league cup, etc., but the closest thing would be the division. Needless to say, MU hasn't won the Champions League for a few years despite being a consistent contender.

 

I realize your knowledge of football is stronger than mine. I'd be happy to debate any of the other sports that I listed if you would rather.. college football, NBA, NHL, NFL. Next time I won't be so accomodating.

[iortiz]

Thanks for the clarification about Real Madrid. I see them 'competing' with Barcelona and their high payroll and figure that they are a top team. I guess I was wrong.

 

MLB doesn't have the equivalent of the FA cup, league cup, etc., but the closest thing would be the division. Needless to say, MU hasn't won the Champions League for a few years despite being a consistent contender.

 

I realize your knowledge of football is stronger than mine. I'd be happy to debate any of the other sports that I listed if you would rather.. college football, NBA, NHL, NFL. Next time I won't be so accomodating.

 

Sure, RM, MU and Barcelona are top teams, but if they don't win at least their country-leagues, they suck and everybody points at them and often their coaches, players and GM go (theres no room for 3 or 4 years of failure like in Boston ), due their payrolls and expectations. Mostly RM.

 

Well, I would say that the Premiere League (England) or the BBVA League (Spain) is like the WS in MLB

 

The Champions Legue is something else and goes beyond. Imagine a MLB-level at any country in europe (where the best leagues are). Then take the champion and the sub-champion of each country and put them in a tournament. That is the Champions League.

 

You can't find a MLB-LEVEL (organization, payrolls, players, etc) at any country outside the US. Maybe Japan but I doubt it.

 

Soccer is pretty different since it is the most popular sport around the world. You can find several high-level leagues around the world (equivalent to MLB ) like Italy, Spain, England, Germany, etc.

 

Hell, the "passion" (fanaticism I would call it that way) in Soccer have turned very bad last years. A lot people have died in the last decade at soccer games and in certain stadiums women and children and even fans from the visitors' team can't go there since the environment has turned insecure, mostly in Latin America. So... you can imagine the pressure on players, coaches and GMs by the fans and the media, even death threats had been in effect on them. I don't go anymore to stadiums.

 

I just follow MLB and soccer. I like NFL and NBA, but I'm not that expert but I like them. Collage football? I don't follow it, so many teams, I don't even understand the rules in order to make a bowl game, maybe someday you could explain it to me hehehe. Hokey?, I don't even understand the rules

[SoxSport]

I would say Crawfords lack of stolen based is not the managers fault..... I would tend to say it has more to do with the fact he never gets his but on first in order to steal second.

 

yeah, and he never got his but on first at TB, either.

[SoxSport]

Who's gonna can these guys?

 

Theo's gatekeeper is Lucchino.

 

Henry and Werner have probably never fired anybody in their lives.

Oh yeah, Grady Little--after all the fan/media outrage.

 

The one guy who could get it is Tito.

The media's heating up right now, and if they don't make the playoffs, he'll be the scapegoat.