2011 Playoffs for granted?

[SoxFanForsyth]

To quote Branch Rickey' date=' "Luck is the residue of design."[/quote']

 

Yeah. You throw enough s*** at a wall and somehow it sticks. That's the design the Yankees had when they signed Colon and Prior this past offseason.

 

If this wasn't luck, why wasn't Colon in the starting rotation at the beginning of the season? He's 38. He's not a recently drafted pitcher who needed to get a couple more AAA starts under his belt.

[a700hitter]

You expect Theo to be a fortune teller? The Giants gave up a top pitching prospect in their system for Beltran, probably because they intend to re-sign him at the end of the year. You had a .935 OPS right fielder on your team, why would you go out and get Beltran? That makes no sense.

 

And this team HAD depth! How do you not understand this? Aceves, Doubront, Wakefield, Miller, Weiland. You are like iortiz, you guys expect to have legitimate #4 and #5 starters as depth. The problem is, if there are legit #4 and #5 starters, they wouldn't be in AAA unless they are young (Doubront, Weiland). Otherwise, they're playing for another team, pitching every 5 days.

 

And that's not even to mention that there WAS NOBODY available. This is obvious because the Yankees started with a rotation that included Garcia, and Colon was the next in line after Hughes went down.

I have to say that you are acting like a very poor loser. Tip your hat to them if they beat us. It's the right thing to do. No one predicted that the Yankees would be as good as the Sox if the Yanks had stayed healthy. They had early injuries and critical injuries and they stayed closeeven when the Sox were on a roll. The Sox ran out of steam and the Yanks finished the race on their feet. They deserve a lot of credit. GMs get paid to build rosters that can withstand injuries.

[iortiz]

What would you be offering? Those guys got serious hauls. Jimenez isn't even doing that great right now too.

 

I could give you some options but in the end I don't know man, that is Theo's job. He is very well paid to figure it out how it could happen.

 

About Jimenez, playing here, could be different, but again we'll never know, that's for sure.

[a700hitter]

Yeah. You throw enough s*** at a wall and somehow it sticks. That's the design the Yankees had when they signed Colon and Prior this past offseason.

 

If this wasn't luck, why wasn't Colon in the starting rotation at the beginning of the season? He's 38. He's not a recently drafted pitcher who needed to get a couple more AAA starts under his belt.

Unfortunately, when the Sox throw s*** like Smoltz, penney and miller among others, it never works out. I guess it is always luck. Remember Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I have to say that you are acting like a very poor loser. Tip your hat to them if they beat us. It's the right thing to do. No one predicted that the Yankees would be as good as the Sox if the Yanks had stayed healthy. They had early injuries and critical injuries and they stayed closeeven when the Sox were on a roll. The Sox ran out of steam and the Yanks finished the race on their feet. They deserve a lot of credit. GMs get paid to build rosters that can withstand injuries.

 

How am I being a poor loser? We haven't lost yet first of all, and I'm not at all spiteful of them getting good performance out of Colon. The Red Sox caught lightening in a bottle with Matt Albers for the first half of the season. So what. How is anything that I'm saying disqualifying the fact that the Yankees have the lead right now?

 

Calling them lucky for Colon posting a 3.55 ERA this season is calling it like it is. And any Yankee fan on this thread would agree with me.

 

By the way - add Millwood to that listing. Explain to me, again, how signing Millwood, Prior, and Colon, and getting 170 IP of 3.55 baseball out of Colon is a sign of organizational strength, rather than luck??

[SoxFanForsyth]

Unfortunately' date=' when the Sox throw s*** like Smoltz, penney and miller among others, it never works out. I guess it is always luck. Remember Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon.[/quote']

 

Aaron Small is a perfect example. Lightening in a bottle. Career 6+ era guy, comes in and goes 10-0 and throws to a 3.20 ERA for NY. Just got absolutely lucky. That's not to say that they don't deserve to be where they are, it's just saying they had luck on their side.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Yankees deserve credit for withstanding what they've been through, but at the same time, SP injuries are a completely different injury than RP or IF/OF injuries. With RP or IF/OF injuries, you can hide the injury. SP injuries are a glaring weakness because your #6 and #7 starter are not going to be able to replicate the success of a #2 or #3 starter.

[a700hitter]

How am I being a poor loser?

You are making excuses.

 

By the way - add Millwood to that listing. Explain to me' date=' again, how signing Millwood, Prior, and Colon, and getting 170 IP of 3.55 baseball out of Colon is a sign of organizational strength, rather than luck??[/quote']You omitted Garcia from that group, and of that group, Garcia, Colon and Millwood have all had success this season in the majors. It was a poor decision by the Sox letting Millwood go without seeing what he could do. He wouldn't be the first veteran pitcher to be successful with reduced velocity. Look at Garcia. Instead they kept this project Miller that can't hit the water if he was in a boat.

[Palodios]

I could give you some options but in the end I don't know man' date=' that is Theo's job.[/quote']

 

Let's change the nature of this discussion, since we don't seem to be getting anywhere.Who would you guys like? So far we've mentioned Jimeniz, Kuroda, Harden, and Dempster, all of which have been nonproductive on their respective teams or unobtainable via full notrade clause. Who would you guys like to have seen Theo get at the trade deadline?

[iortiz]

Let's change the nature of this discussion' date=' since we don't seem to be getting anywhere.Who would you guys like? So far we've mentioned Jimeniz, Kuroda, Harden, and Dempster, all of which have been nonproductive on their respective teams or unobtainable via full notrade clause. Who would you guys like to have seen Theo get at the trade deadline?[/quote']

 

Are you agree that they are better than Lackey, D-K, Weiland, Miller, Wake even combined thus far? If you ask me... Jimenez or Kuroda, but any could've fitted just fine as 4-5 or even higher in the rotation, IMO

[SoxFanForsyth]

How am I making excuses? I'm saying there wasn't anything out there, tough luck. You're saying it's the FO's fault. That's an excuse to me.

[a700hitter]

How am I making excuses? I'm saying there wasn't anything out there' date=' tough luck. You're saying it's the FO's fault. That's an excuse to me.[/quote']You are blaming injuries. They are part of the game. That's an excuse. The Yankees had injuries too. Jeesh, were going around in circles. I am not making excuses, just noting that accountability is always with the FO. Luck, good or bad is also an excuse.

[iortiz]

How am I making excuses? I'm saying there wasn't anything out there' date=' tough luck. You're saying it's the FO's fault. That's an excuse to me.[/quote']

 

Really? you put that like if you were there. We certainly will never ever really know, trust me.

 

BTW Pointing at the FOs is far to be an excuse but a cognitive judgment based on their responsibilities.

 

Sure, it ain't over yet.

[iortiz]

You are blaming injuries. They are part of the game. That's an excuse. The Yankees had injuries too. Jeesh' date=' were going around in circles. I am not making excuses, just noting that accountability is always with the FO. Luck, good or bad is also an excuse.[/quote']

 

And the GMs have to assume/consider/forecast/predict/budget 'em. They are part of their decisions and responsibilities when they are building a team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You are blaming injuries. They are part of the game. That's an excuse. The Yankees had injuries too. Jeesh' date=' were going around in circles. I am not making excuses, just noting that accountability is always with the FO. Luck, good or bad is also an excuse.[/quote']

 

I'm not blaming injuries. Not at all. Everyone deals with injuries during the season. And what do you think I'm pinning injuries on? The season is far from over. With the Rays/Yanks playing 7 more times, and the Sox/Yanks playing 7 more times, we still have a very real chance at winning the division. Would I blame injuries on winning the division? I don't get it. I still haven't conceded anything.

[iortiz]

In the words of Don Corleone when he slaps a crying Johnny Fontaine: "Act like a man!" No' date=' offense ladies.[/quote']

 

Goes to my sig.

[a700hitter]

I'm not blaming injuries. Not at all. Everyone deals with injuries during the season. And what do you think I'm pinning injuries on? The season is far from over. With the Rays/Yanks playing 7 more times' date=' and the Sox/Yanks playing 7 more times, we still have a very real chance at winning the division. Would I blame injuries on winning the division? I don't get it. I still haven't conceded anything.[/quote']So you are limiting your excuses if we lose to Red Sox bad luck and Yankee good luck?

[SoxSport]

Colon is taking some questionable supplements which have clearly affected his performance.

The supplements are considered borderline, but MLB has not done anything about them.

 

Garcia? Who knows? Granderson? Teixeira? Papi? They can take lots of things that aren't tested for or detectable. I say more power to them. As long as it doesn't affect their health long term.

[SoxFanForsyth]

So you are limiting your excuses if we lose to Red Sox bad luck and Yankee good luck?

 

I'm not making excuses at all. If we don't make it, it's our own teams fault.

[iortiz]

Seems like the light is commencing to show in the end of the road.

[iortiz]

4 GB.

[Palodios]

Let's change the nature of this discussion' date=' since we don't seem to be getting anywhere.Who would you guys like? So far we've mentioned Jimeniz, Kuroda, Harden, and Dempster, all of which have been nonproductive on their respective teams or unobtainable via full notrade clause. Who would you guys like to have seen Theo get at the trade deadline?[/quote']

 

I love how neither of you actually answered this question.

[SoxFanForsyth]

That was a big win for the Sox tonight. Wake's 200 was a minor detail. This team needed a blowout win in the worst way. Talk about a confidence builder. Remember when Pedroia was struggling? That's clearly over. What a laser show tonight.

 

Between Beckett being cleared to pitch in the TB series, TB losing and now having to pick up 4 games with 15 to play, this was a great day for the Sox.

 

Now, if Lackey can come out tomorrow and just keep us in the game for 6 innings, we'll be in very good shape.

[a700hitter]

I love how neither of you actually answered this question.

I think Ryan Dempster is much better than Wake, miller or Lackey. The argument about him pitching in the NL central holds no water for me. He's on a horrible team that has the worst defense in all of baseball. They are not bad defensively. They are the worst. Also i would have seen what Millwood could do. Again, we didn't need to pick up several pitchers just 1 or 2, because 1 or 2 victories is all that we needed in this stretch.

[iortiz]

I love how neither of you actually answered this question.

 

Are you agree that they are better than Lackey' date=' D-K, Weiland, Miller, Wake even combined thus far? If you ask me... Jimenez or Kuroda, but any could've fitted just fine as 4-5 or even higher in the rotation, IMO[/quote']

[iortiz]

I think Ryan Dempster is much better than Wake' date=' miller or Lackey. [b']The argument about him pitching in the NL central holds no water for me. He's on a horrible team that has the worst defense in all of baseball. They are not bad defensively. They are the worst[/b]. Also i would have seen what Millwood could do. Again, we didn't need to pick up several pitchers just 1 or 2, because 1 or 2 victories is all that we needed in this stretch.

 

+1

 

And

 

Good point.

[SoxFanForsyth]

@iortiz - The problem with Kuroda was that he had a no trade clause that he said he would not waive to go to Boston. The problem with Jimenez was that the Guardians gave the Rox more than the Red Sox had to offer if they wanted to.

 

Bedard, Harden, Fister, Dempster were the only ones really available, and at the time, Lackey was throwing well enough, Bedard was going to slide into the 3rd slot, and Wake was going to take over as the 5th man. They were wanting to get both Harden AND Bedard, but Oakland was demanding too much for Harden with a bad physical. The Tigers overpaid for Fister, although he's been brilliant since the ASB, and you can make an argument for him. Still, though, I think the Tigers offered more for Fister than the Sox would have been comfortable giving up for a middle-of-the-rotation starter. The reason the Tigers gave up so much was because they had Verlander - Scherzer as their 1-2 punch. Now, with Fister, they can go toe to toe with anyone 1-2, which makes them awfully dangerous.

 

Basically, other teams were more desperate for SP than the Red Sox at the deadline. The deal they made was a solid deal while not mortgaging the future.

 

Trust me, in a couple years when Jimenez is posting 4+ ERA's, and guys like Will Middlebrooks, Jose Iglesias, and Anthony Ranaudo are the new Dustin Pedroia's and Clay Buchholz's of the team, you'll be thrilled we didn't pull the trigger. It was just a couple years ago that the best move Theo made in the offseason was not pulling the trigger on Johan Santana, which would have cost Lester + Ellsbury +1 IIRC.

[Palodios]

Are you agree that they are better than Lackey' date=' D-K, Weiland, Miller, Wake even combined thus far? If you ask me... Jimenez or Kuroda, but any could've fitted just fine as 4-5 or even higher in the rotation, IMO[/quote']

 

Yeah, except for the fact that neither of those guys were even remotely obtainable. Try again.

[Palodios]

I think Ryan Dempster is much better than Wake' date=' miller or Lackey. The argument about him pitching in the NL central holds no water for me. He's on a horrible team that has the worst defense in all of baseball. They are not bad defensively. They are the worst. Also i would have seen what Millwood could do. Again, we didn't need to pick up several pitchers just 1 or 2, because 1 or 2 victories is all that we needed in this stretch.[/quote']

 

Better? Sure. Significantly better? No way.

[a700hitter]

Better? Sure. Significantly better? No way.

He would have been good enough to keep us in games and win one or two during this bad stretch, and yes he is significantly better than those guys. Wakefield is an empty shell. Lackey is having the worst season of any starter in history and Miller is just not consistent enough to be a major league pitcher.