Beckett's ankle sprained

[iortiz]

I disagree. If the Sox got Hunter Pence' date=' they would be the team to beat.[/quote']

 

and/or Jimenez.

 

Guardians and Phillies FOs made the job. Theo?...Certainly did not.

[Palodios]

I may be that good' date=' but Theo is not.[/quote']

 

 

Even so, I think that the difference between getting to the ALCS and winning the World Series seems like such a huge gap this year that the FO probably expected one major injury-- and the complete lack of depth to fill in whatever spot that it opened.

[a700hitter]

 

Even so, I think that the difference between getting to the ALCS and winning the World Series seems like such a huge gap this year that the FO probably expected one major injury-- and the complete lack of depth to fill in whatever spot that it opened.

But it is the job of the FO to make sure that the team has the depth to withstand injuries. They fail in that regard year after year.

 

Anyway, I am available to right this ship, but they need to know that I am nulling other offers. Of course I don't have such a lofty degree as Theo's degree in Social Work. Lol!

[Palodios]

But it is the job of the FO to make sure that the team has the depth to withstand injuries. They fail in that regard year after year.

 

But there was no way to rebuild that depth at the trade deadline. There were too many holes to fill.

[Emmz]

If you pay those salaries' date=' the only outcome you expect to see as a CFO are not good numbers but excellent numbers, plain and simple; every organization runs that way, and somebody's head will fall if something goes wrong, and mostly since you're about to close the 2011 exercise and Henry will ask for answers, and trust me, he doesn't care about OPSs and splits.[/quote']

You completely missed the point, which is that it's not Theo's fault that those guys didn't turn out, in fact, only 2 of those players were considered risky signings, 1 of which, had payed off for the most part (Daisuke).

 

It doesn't matter what their OPS was, or whether or not Henry cares about it, what matters is that Theo made the right decisions and didn't invest too much money on something that probably wasn't going to work out. That didn't happen, Theo signed players who had high expectations, and failed to meet them. Theo's not obligated to make sure the players produce on the field, he's obligated to make good investments. He made very good investments, some of which haven't panned out, but they were good investments at the time.

[iortiz]

You completely missed the point, which is that it's not Theo's fault that those guys didn't turn out, in fact, only 2 of those players were considered risky signings, 1 of which, had payed off for the most part (Daisuke).

 

It doesn't matter what their OPS was, or whether or not Henry cares about it, what matters is that Theo made the right decisions and didn't invest too much money on something that probably wasn't going to work out. That didn't happen, Theo signed players who had high expectations, and failed to meet them. Theo's not obligated to make sure the players produce on the field, he's obligated to make good investments. He made very good investments, some of which haven't panned out, but they were good investments at the time.

 

Sorry, but he did not make good decisions and they definitely haven't been good investments at all. I already showed you the numbers (those players' ROI numbers are negative, how could they be good investments?). The outcome is ALL that matters in business, it is ALL, trust me; not the planning, and certainly not the good intentions. Those players are a failure thus far this season, and that is the FACT, and that is my point.

[SoxSport]

I don't think Theo made the right decision not trading prospects for Pence. Pence would have corrected the imbalance in their lineup, and was an excellent investment for the future. With all their free agents, they don't have a lot of room on the roster for prospects. They really are a win now team.

 

But I don't think Pence would have made much difference with the Sox. Their real problem is PITCHING. And Pence can't pitch.

 

On the other hand, Pence makes a big difference in Philly. They have the pitching, and needed the RHd bat to replace the guy that signed with Washington. If Theo had signed Pence, just keeping him for Philly would have been a factor.

[a700hitter]

But there was no way to rebuild that depth at the trade deadline. There were too many holes to fill.

At the Trading Deadline, we needed a RF and a back of the rotation starter in case Buchholz couldn't make it back. They didn't get the RF and they got a pitcher made of glass with a bum knee. Bad Theo. Bad Theo.

 

John Henry would you put up with this type of performance from one of your Hedge Fund managers? Oh, I forgot. . . That business pretty much went bust on you. Anyway, get your head out of your ass. You have clearly lost your business edge-- the killer instinct. Theo should be booted out the door with a copy of Dice K's contract sticking out of his ass. John Henry, success has made you soft. You have become to aristocratic too genteel. You need a shrewd city kid to run that organization. Your Ivy leaguers Brie eating wusses are patsies and are not up to the job.

[Emmz]

Sorry' date=' but he did not make good decisions and they definitely haven't been good investments at all. I already showed you the numbers (those players' ROI numbers are negative, how could they be good investments?). The outcome is [b']ALL[/b] that matters in business, it is ALL, trust me; not the planning, and certainly not the good intentions. Those players are a failure thus far this season, and that is the FACT, and that is my point.

 

This is all in hindsight, which makes your point completely irrelevant to your own logic that Theo should be fired for his decisions. It is not his job to get the players to play to their best ability, it's his job to field a good team with his budget. Those players were all supposed to be better than this, it is not Theo's fault that happened.

 

You basically want him to be fired because he didn't expect a 200 point plus drop in OPS from Crawford, and a 2 run inflation of Lackey's ERA. Your argument, my friend, is very flawed.

[SoxSport]

yeah. I think the organization is looking a bit flabby. Mucho talent, but not much discipline. The manager is a what me worry? low key, popular kind of guy. No drill sargeant there. Henry maybe sets the example--easy going billionaire.

[BeepBeepYoureDumb]

At the Trading Deadline, we needed a RF and a back of the rotation starter in case Buchholz couldn't make it back. They didn't get the RF and they got a pitcher made of glass with a bum knee. Bad Theo. Bad Theo.

 

A pitcher made of glass with a bum knee who has yet to miss a start and has a 9 k/9 in 32 innings and a 3.66 ERA since he joined the Sox. Also, our problem isn't RF. Reddick looks like he is bouncing out of his little late season slump. They were never going to acquire a full-time RFer to move Reddick out of RF, they want to give him the chance to make an adjustment and bounce back from his rough patch. Any player who is going to one day maybe have an every day role needs to do that. Reddick is getting his chance. He needs some time to develop but he's hitting .295/.345/.495 to Pence's .310/.360/.488. Why are you whining about that of all things? We even have a well-above average defensive RFer in Drew who hopefully will be ready for action soon.

 

We needed a bullpen arm and they spaced on it and they're not utilizing Bowden or Weiland at all. I'd even say they need to commit Aceves to 7th inning duty and I'm getting annoyed they're not doing so, but thats less of a big deal, he's pitching valuable innings.

[a700hitter]

A pitcher made of glass with a bum knee who has yet to miss a start and has a 9 k/9 in 32 innings and a 3.66 ERA since he joined the Sox. Also, our problem isn't RF. Reddick looks like he is bouncing out of his little late season slump. They were never going to acquire a full-time RFer to move Reddick out of RF, they want to give him the chance to make an adjustment and bounce back from his rough patch. Any player who is going to one day maybe have an every day role needs to do that. Reddick is getting his chance. He needs some time to develop but he's hitting .295/.345/.495 to Pence's .310/.360/.488. Why are you whining about that of all things? We even have a well-above average defensive RFer in Drew who hopefully will be ready for action soon.

 

We needed a bullpen arm and they spaced on it and they're not utilizing Bowden or Weiland at all. I'd even say they need to commit Aceves to 7th inning duty and I'm getting annoyed they're not doing so, but thats less of a big deal, he's pitching valuable innings.

The Phillies have an OF of the future in Dominic Brown, but yet the went a got Pence. Just because Reddick might and I stress might be the RF of the future doesn't mean that they couldn't get insurance for this year Carlos Quentin or someone else. Bedard has not gone deep into games for us and he is missing starts at the most important time of the year. The bullpen hasn't been that bad. It has been overused, because we are close to last in quality starts. Albers who had been very useful in the first half has clearly been burned out, and Bard may be on the way to burn out too. Theo did a terrible job making the necessary reinforcements IMO that were obvious and fixable.

 

Edit: There have been no updates on Drew. Plus, the word is that he'll need shoulder surgery.

[iortiz]

This is all in hindsight, which makes your point completely irrelevant to your own logic that Theo should be fired for his decisions. It is not his job to get the players to play to their best ability, it's his job to field a good team with his budget. Those players were all supposed to be better than this, it is not Theo's fault that happened.

 

You basically want him to be fired because he didn't expect a 200 point plus drop in OPS from Crawford, and a 2 run inflation of Lackey's ERA. Your argument, my friend, is very flawed.

 

Who signed 'em? He. Who is responsible? He. Is he gonna be fired? If he doesn't make the playoffs again and considering our actual payroll, absolutely yes, but don't worry, we gonna make it, but he is still responsible for those worthless 55 MUSD, the entire Marlins or Nats payroll.

 

Forget about baseball for a second... If I name you my new CCO of my company and imagine that I give you all the budget and everything you ask me in order to achieve the sales quote, and after a year you don't make the number... who would you think I'm gonna fire? Your sales executives?, your sales managers? your marketing staff? Probably some, but you definitely would go with them. You won't say me (hope) " Don't look at me, I told them (your sales staff) to sale, God knows that I told 'em, but they didn't".

 

In a management position you assume the entire responsibility of your decisions, the good ones and the bad ones. Unfair? Not at all, that's why who makes a MBA and gets a management position, are often very good paid in order to make the RIGHT decisions.

 

Anyway, I already made my point... if you still think that is not Theo's responsibility, be my guest, But watch out in which hands you invest your money my friend.

[Emmz]

Who signed 'em? He. Who is responsible? He. Is he gonna be fired? If he doesn't make the playoffs again and considering our actual payroll, absolutely yes, but don't worry we gonna make it, but he is still responsible for those worthless 55 MUSD, the entire Marlins or Nats payroll.

 

Forget about baseball for a second... If I name you my new CCO of my company and imagine that I give you all the budget and everything you ask me in order to achieve the sales quote, and after a year you don't make the number... who would you think I'm gonna fire? Your sales executives?, your sales managers? your marketing staff? Probably some, but you definitely would go with them. You won't say me (hope) " Don't look at me, I told them (your sales staff) to sale, God knows that I told 'em, but they didn't".

 

In a management position you assume the entire responsibility of your decisions, the good ones and the bad ones. Unfair? Not at all, that's why who makes a MBA and gets a management position, are often very good paid in order to make the RIGHT decisions.

 

Anyway, I already made my point... if you still think that is not Theo's responsibility, be my guest, But watch out in which hands you invest your money my friend.

 

Lol, he's not responsible for players who were supposed to produce. Lets see, all signs pointed to Lackey and Crawford being headed into their primes, he signed them, they didn't produce up to par. That is not Theo's fault. Your logic is all in hindsight. Theo's decisions were completely rational at the time, which is what matters. There's a serious flaw in your logic that you're not seeing, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse trying to prove a point again.

[a700hitter]

Who signed 'em? He. Who is responsible? He. Is he gonna be fired? If he doesn't make the playoffs again and considering our actual payroll, absolutely yes, but don't worry, we gonna make it, but he is still responsible for those worthless 55 MUSD, the entire Marlins or Nats payroll.

 

Forget about baseball for a second... If I name you my new CCO of my company and imagine that I give you all the budget and everything you ask me in order to achieve the sales quote, and after a year you don't make the number... who would you think I'm gonna fire? Your sales executives?, your sales managers? your marketing staff? Probably some, but you definitely would go with them. You won't say me (hope) " Don't look at me, I told them (your sales staff) to sale, God knows that I told 'em, but they didn't".

 

In a management position you assume the entire responsibility of your decisions, the good ones and the bad ones. Unfair? Not at all, that's why who makes a MBA and gets a management position, are often very good paid in order to make the RIGHT decisions.

 

Anyway, I already made my point... if you still think that is not Theo's responsibility, be my guest, But watch out in which hands you invest your money my friend.

Theo runs the organization very well in some aspects, but in other aspects like his track record with regard to free agent acquisitions and his building of a bullpen and a bench are poor. It's difficult to argue otherwise. If they win it al this year, he gets the props, but if this team limps to the finish and misses the playoffs (God forbid) and or has an early exit, he bears the responsibility. You can't take the props, but not be accountable if things don't turn out right.

[Emmz]

He isn't player management, Tito is. Theo is just the guy who puts together the roster, it's Theo's job to get them to produce.

[Emmz]

Theo runs the organization very well in some aspects' date=' but in other aspects like his track record with regard to free agent acquisitions and his building of a bullpen and a bench are poor. It's difficult to argue otherwise. If they win it al this year, he gets the props, but if this team limps to the finish and misses the playoffs (God forbid) and or has an early exit, he bears the responsibility. You can't take the props, but not be accountable if yjings don'y turn out right.[/quote']

 

That's only the business side of it. This is a baseball forum, not Forbes Forums or Wall Street Interactive. This site is baseball. Theo made the correct BASEBALL decision, and that's all there is to it, and it's pretty foolish to argue otherwise.

[a700hitter]

Lol' date=' he's not responsible for players who were supposed to produce. Lets see, all signs pointed to Lackey and Crawford being headed into their primes, he signed them, they didn't produce up to par. That is not Theo's fault. Your logic is all in hindsight. Theo's decisions were completely rational at the time, which is what matters. There's a serious flaw in your logic that you're not seeing, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse trying to prove a point again.[/quote']And there was no reason to think Dice K would be a big star in the US. Bobby Valentine who managed in japan for several years said that he would be a back of the rotation starter and he was right. Lackey also had experienced arm trouble prior to his signing and his numbers were already declining. If he had passed on Lackey and Cameron in 2010 and signed Matt Holliday and put the full court press on Cliff Lee in 2011 this teams trajectory would be markedly better.

[a700hitter]

That's only the business side of it. This is a baseball forum' date=' not Forbes Forums or Wall Street Interactive. This site is baseball. Theo made the correct BASEBALL decision, and that's all there is to it, and it's pretty foolish to argue otherwise.[/quote']It think Holliday and Lee were the better options than Lackey, Cameron and Crawford, and i think others aagree.

[Emmz]

It think Holliday and Lee were the better options than Lackey' date=' Cameron and Crawford, and i think others aagree.[/quote']

 

Holliday was definitely a better investment, I agree that Theo should have gone with him instead of bringing in Cameron to replace Bay. I was a huge supporter of Holliday, and I wish the Sox would have gone after him instead of Lackey/Cameron, because it sets the future of Gonzo/Holliday hitting 3-4. That's just deadly.

 

However, to say Lackey, or Daisuke, or Crawford were bad decisions, which is essentially what iortiz is saying, then that's just incorrect.

[Emmz]

And there was no reason to think Dice K would be a big star in the US. Bobby Valentine who managed in japan for several years said that he would be a back of the rotation starter and he was right. Lackey also had experienced arm trouble prior to his signing and his numbers were already declining. If he had passed on Lackey and Cameron in 2010 and signed Matt Holliday and put the full court press on Cliff Lee in 2011 this teams trajectory would be markedly better.

 

No one knew that Lee was going to stick it to the Yankees. If he didn't, Lee would have been theirs. The Yankees get whatever they want unless something weird happens. Lee decided to flip them the bird and go to Philly.

[a700hitter]

Holliday was definitely a better investment, I agree that Theo should have gone with him instead of bringing in Cameron to replace Bay. I was a huge supporter of Holliday, and I wish the Sox would have gone after him instead of Lackey/Cameron, because it sets the future of Gonzo/Holliday hitting 3-4. That's just deadly.

 

However, to say Lackey, or Daisuke, or Crawford were bad decisions, which is essentially what iortiz is saying, then that's just incorrect.

Lackey had been experiencing a decline in his numbers and had experienced elbow issues. There were also people here that thought Crawford was not a good fit due to platoon issues, etc. See my sig from a banned poster. Looking back on Dice K, there was no reason to project him as a top of the rotation guy or to pay him like one. My opinion differs from yours on Dice K and Lackey. I still like Crawford despite this seasons underperformance.

[iortiz]

Theo runs the organization very well in some aspects' date=' but in other aspects like his track record with regard to free agent acquisitions and his building of a bullpen and a bench are poor. It's difficult to argue otherwise. If they win it al this year, he gets the props, but if this team limps to the finish and misses the playoffs (God forbid) and or has an early exit, he bears the responsibility. You can't take the props, but not be accountable if things don't turn out right.[/quote']

 

Agree.

 

BTW... looking at our actual rotation, today's game outcome and the rest of our schedule... I wouldn't take for granted the POs, Tampa is not eliminated yet, and we will face them, 8 more times? And 3 more vs NYY?...it is definitely not over yet.

[BeepBeepYoureDumb]

The Phillies have an OF of the future in Dominic Brown' date=' but yet the went a got Pence. Just because Reddick might and I stress might be the RF of the future doesn't mean that they couldn't get insurance for this year Carlos Quentin or someone else.[/quote']

 

Domonic Brown is hitting .246/.335/.393 which is a little different than what Reddick is doing. Reddick has earned his right to a fair shot at the starting right field gig. I agree completely about insurance, but to me Pence is a bit more than insurance. I would have been happy with a Francoeur or something like that. A Bobby Kielty type. Mike Cuddyer was my pipe dream.

 

Bedard has not gone deep into games for us

 

He's been on a pitch count in half of the games he's pitched and another was rain interrupted.

 

and he is missing starts at the most important time of the year.

 

Honestly, I think they're just trying to maximize his quality innings by giving him a breather. This is absolutely not the most important time of the year. October is the most important time of the year. We're up 7 games to the Rays. That said, if he misses two starts, you're right but I doubt that's the case.

 

Why do people want to hate on Bedard? He's looked great and in his career he's been really really good. Why wouldn't we root for a guy to pull a Chris Carpenter instead of treating the guy like he's got a 6.11 ERA and a face like rocky dennis. He's got all the talent to do it.

 

 

 

he bullpen hasn't been that bad. It has been overused, because we are close to last in quality starts. Albers who had been very useful in the first half has clearly been burned out, and Bard may be on the way to burn out too. Theo did a terrible job making the necessary reinforcements IMO that were obvious and fixable.

 

Edit: There have been no updates on Drew. Plus, the word is that he'll need shoulder surgery.

 

Since Albers has hit the skids, the pen has looked pretty thin. Agreed on Bard. I think Theo should have brought in a quality arm. Kojji Uehara was had for nothing. That would have been a fine move. He had a 1.72 ERA in 47 innings in baltimore.

[Emmz]

Lackey had been experiencing a decline in his numbers and had experienced elbow issues. There were also people here that thought Crawford was not a good fit due to platoon issues' date=' etc. See my sig from a banned poster. Looking back on Dice K, there was no reason to project him as a top of the rotation guy or to pay him like one. My opinion differs from yours on Dice K and Lackey. I still like Crawford despite this seasons underperformance.[/quote']

 

Platoon performance doesn't come into it, Crawford was entering his prime and for the past two seasons, had been playing like a 20M dollar player. In fact, he was worth more wins in 2009 and 2010 than Holliday. The contract was perfectly timed.

 

Dice K was worth more than his contract in all 3 years he was healthy, so idk what you're talking about. On top of this, he was being paid 8.5M a year, hardly a top-of-the-rotation guy's salary. He wasn't overpaid.

 

Lackey didn't experience any decline, in 2008 he was hurt. From 2005-2007 his value average was 21.8m/yr. In 2009 he was almost back up to that number. Hell, even in his first year with the Sox, his war was 4.0, good for 15.9m. It was a good investment at the time, really.

[iortiz]

Platoon performance doesn't come into it, Crawford was entering his prime and for the past two seasons, had been playing like a 20M dollar player. In fact, he was worth more wins in 2009 and 2010 than Holliday. The contract was perfectly timed.

 

Dice K was worth more than his contract in all 3 years he was healthy, so idk what you're talking about. On top of this, he was being paid 8.5M a year, hardly a top-of-the-rotation guy's salary. He wasn't overpaid.

 

Lackey didn't experience any decline, in 2008 he was hurt. From 2005-2007 his value average was 21.8m/yr. In 2009 he was almost back up to that number. Hell, even in his first year with the Sox, his war was 4.0, good for 15.9m. It was a good investment at the time, really.

 

I'm not sure what you understand or define a good investment. A good investment to me, is when you lay out money or capital in an enterprise/business with an expectation of PROFIT. Just to be sure, my point is ranged only by the present (2011).... not the past, and certainly not the future.

 

That being said, 2011's exercise is far to show decent IRR/ROI/NPV numbers on those players. Like sabermetrics? I already showed you their 2011's WAR numbers.

[a700hitter]

Platoon performance doesn't come into it, Crawford was entering his prime and for the past two seasons, had been playing like a 20M dollar player. In fact, he was worth more wins in 2009 and 2010 than Holliday. The contract was perfectly timed.

 

Dice K was worth more than his contract in all 3 years he was healthy, so idk what you're talking about. On top of this, he was being paid 8.5M a year, hardly a top-of-the-rotation guy's salary. He wasn't overpaid.

 

Lackey didn't experience any decline, in 2008 he was hurt. From 2005-2007 his value average was 21.8m/yr. In 2009 he was almost back up to that number. Hell, even in his first year with the Sox, his war was 4.0, good for 15.9m. It was a good investment at the time, really.

You are forgetting about the posting fee for Dice K. Just because he doesn't get that mony and it doesn't get counted toward the luxury tax cap doesn't mean that it wasn't real money. The $52 million acquisitiion cost was part of the investment in Dice K and he certrainly didn't earn twice his salary. They invested as much in Dice K as Cliff Lee got, and Dice K had no track record that would translate to major league success.

 

Lackey is a closer call, but he did have injury issues as you have acknowledged. The Sox docs probably should have checked him out more thoroughly.

[a700hitter]

Platoon performance doesn't come into it, Crawford was entering his prime and for the past two seasons, had been playing like a 20M dollar player. In fact, he was worth more wins in 2009 and 2010 than Holliday. The contract was perfectly timed.

 

Dice K was worth more than his contract in all 3 years he was healthy, so idk what you're talking about. On top of this, he was being paid 8.5M a year, hardly a top-of-the-rotation guy's salary. He wasn't overpaid.

 

Lackey didn't experience any decline, in 2008 he was hurt. From 2005-2007 his value average was 21.8m/yr. In 2009 he was almost back up to that number. Hell, even in his first year with the Sox, his war was 4.0, good for 15.9m. It was a good investment at the time, really.

You are forgetting about the posting fee for Dice K. Just because he doesn't get that mony and it doesn't get counted toward the luxury tax cap doesn't mean that it wasn't real money. The $52 million acquisitiion cost was part of the investment in Dice K and he certrainly didn't earn twice his salary. They invested as much in Dice K as Cliff Lee got, and Dice K had no track record that would translate to major league success.

 

Lackey is a closer call, but he did have injury issues as you have acknowledged. The Sox docs probably should have checked him out more thoroughly.

 

I agree with you about Crawford, but I always thought that Holliday was the better option. In the end the results count and the GM has to take the heat.

[jacksonianmarch]

BBYD, Bedard isnt being babied. His knee issue has flared back up. They are hoping he just needs a week. He was a desperation pickup, a la Smoltz and Wells from yesteryear. They had to do something, so it is better than nothing. But he's regularly been reaching 100 pitches by the 6th which is why he isnt going deep into games.

[SoxSport]

The manager reports to the GM. It's a vertical organization.

 

What Tito can do without the FO being involved is something only Tito and the FO knows. The sportswriters don't deal with such things.

 

Obviously, there is a lot of game managing that is Tito by himself. Something he is not great at--especially his handling of pitchers. He constantly gets himself into positions where his bullpen is overworked--because he often uses them when they aren't needed.