Looking back at Red Sox offer for Johan Santana...Whew!

[Spitball]

This is a pretty good reflection and analysis of the Twins trade of Santana to the Mets in '08. The author notes that the Twins opted for the Mets' offer over the Red Sox offer of Lester or Ellsbury, Masterson, and Lowrie. The Twins tried to get the Red Sox to include both Ellsbury and Lester before going with the Mets' offer. I'd forgotten all this but am happy the Sox lost out on that trade.

 

http://joncolosimo.com/2011/08/war-games-with-bill-smith-after-the-santana-trade/

[Wells]

The Twins have recently benefited from living in the Al Central (where the Blue jays would be perennial division contenders) .. They've been hurt this year for sure but another thing that bites them in the ass every day is the fact that they didn't tailor the ballpark to Mauer.. JM didn't sign with MIN because of the hometown appeal.. he signed because nobody else would commit to him as a catcher for 8 years

 

I'm so glad we didn't trade for Santana.. that was a s*** storm coming and I suspect most arm chair GM's (like me haha) were crying against it..

 

Sox brass was smart to balk at it.. the Mets always have a knack for wanting something too much..

 

The Twins are in big time trouble for the foreseeable future and I'm fine with that as long as it keeps ticket prices down for when the Sox visit..

[TheMeanWalrus]

interesting article, sorta

all that war s*** is all well and good but you dont need some made up arbitrary way of assigning value to a player to know that the Twins f***ed up

 

nice post

sometimes the best trades are the ones you dont make

[Wells]

The AL central does more to hide bad teams while making them look "good"

 

I would like to see a balanced schedule and the divisions removed entirely

[a700hitter]

The Sox were going to have a pretty good team whether or not they got Santana. One bad trade or injury is not going to change the course of this franchise. They have had their share of bad acquisitions and injuries and continued to prosper. The only reason for doing the Santana trade would have been to win a World Series, not to be a good team. We'll never know if the Sox would have won a World Series with Sanatana, and we haven't won a World Series since Santana was traded. Hopefully, that will change this October.

[example1]

The Sox were going to have a pretty good team whether or not they got Santana. One bad trade or injury is not going to change the course of this franchise. They have had their share of bad acquisitions and injuries and continued to prosper. The only reason for doing the Santana trade would have been to win a World Series' date=' not to be a good team. We'll never know if the Sox would have won a World Series with Sanatana, and we haven't won a World Series since Santana was traded. Hopefully, that will change this October.[/quote']

 

It would have been a bad trade. Lester > Santana, no need for Ellsbury, Masterson, Lowrie or whomever else to be included. Santana has been injured and/or ineffective for most of his time in NY and Lester continues to be cost-controlled (ie, signed) and is one of the best pitchers in baseball just entering his prime. I don't think there can be much debate that the Sox made the right choice.

 

Also, with "their share of bad acquisitions" I don't think there have been any that involved parting with a foundational part of the future plan. They could have dealt some pretty key pieces (Buchholz, Ellsbury, Bard) and have not done so. Thank god.

[a700hitter]

It would have been a bad trade. Lester > Santana, no need for Ellsbury, Masterson, Lowrie or whomever else to be included. Santana has been injured and/or ineffective for most of his time in NY and Lester continues to be cost-controlled (ie, signed) and is one of the best pitchers in baseball just entering his prime. I don't think there can be much debate that the Sox made the right choice.

 

Also, with "their share of bad acquisitions" I don't think there have been any that involved parting with a foundational part of the future plan. They could have dealt some pretty key pieces (Buchholz, Ellsbury, Bard) and have not done so. Thank god.

Good or bad trade... it sure looks like a good trade, because Santana fell to injury, but who knows whether Santana would have helped them to back to back titles. There is no definitive right answer, but if it makes you feel better about things to take the definitive stance that it was the right non-move so be it. I will not argue it with you.

 

They make some good moves and some bad. They have the resources that they can overcome some poor decisions and still field very competitive teams. I hope that Lester and Ells bring us several championships starting with this season, and the non-move definitively becomes the right move.

 

As far as parting with parts of their foundation, Masterson is having a pretty good season in Cleveland.

[SoxSport]

I think the Twins got the message to deal Santana away from the Yankees and the Red Sox--both were offering better packages than the Mets gave. They dealt him to the NL, and got less--at least on the surface. A lot less. They could have gotten Ian Kennedy, I believe from NY.

What does 'got the message' mean? It means what it means in the real world.

 

In my view, the same thing happened with Holiday and the Cardinals. Parity is important in any sport.

And in baseball it's hardest to do with no cap. But below the surface, I think there are understandings.

Watch who Pujols signs with. My guess is he stays put.

[a700hitter]

I think the Twins got the message to deal Santana away from the Yankees and the Red Sox--both were offering better packages than the Mets gave. They dealt him to the NL, and got less--at least on the surface. A lot less. They could have gotten Ian Kennedy, I believe from NY.

What does 'got the message' mean? It means what it means in the real world.

 

In my view, the same thing happened with Holiday and the Cardinals. Parity is important in any sport.

And in baseball it's hardest to do with no cap. But below the surface, I think there are understandings.

Watch who Pujols signs with. My guess is he stays put.

I think at one point the Yankees had Kennedy and Hughes on the table.

[SoxSport]

I think at one point the Yankees had Kennedy and Hughes on the table.

 

Yeah--the Yanks were offering their top young pitchers. And the Red Sox had a first rate package.

Then all of a sudden he was dealt to the Mets--for peanuts. At least on the surface.

I'll bet there was a boatload of Wilpon money under the table. Selig was conveniently in the Bahamas at the time.

[a700hitter]

Yeah--the Yanks were offering their top young pitchers. And the Red Sox had a first rate package.

Then all of a sudden he was dealt to the Mets--for peanuts. At least on the surface.

I'll bet there was a boatload of Wilpon money under the table. Selig was conveniently in the Bahamas at the time.

The Yanks and Sox were bidding against each other, but the Twins got greedy. The Yankees pulled their offers off the table. Once the Yanks pulled out, the Twins came to the Sox and wanted Lester and Ellsbury. The Sox pulled both offers after the Yanks were out.

[jacksonianmarch]

Walrus and Wells back, NICE!

[Palodios]

Also' date=' with "their share of bad acquisitions" I don't think there have been any that involved parting with a foundational part of the future plan. They could have dealt some pretty key pieces (Buchholz, Ellsbury, Bard) and have not done so. Thank god.[/quote']

 

Agreed. When the Red Sox trade prospects for high level players, their track level is very very high. Beckett+Lowell, Gonzalez, Jason Bay, Victor Martinez, Wagner. The only terrible trade they've made lately was for Gagne, which in retrospect, there was no way they could've known that Fenway would end a 31 year old elite closer's career.

[BeepBeepYoureDumb]

It would have been a bad trade. Lester > Santana' date=' no need for Ellsbury, Masterson, Lowrie or whomever else to be included.[/quote']

 

I thought it was Lester OR Ellsbury++ that the sox offered. 20/20 hindsights gives us the ability to know that would have been a better package than what they got either way. Honestly, if we could have got Santana for Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Masterson, I wish we did it. I think we would have won the world series in '08 and one of my dreams is to see the Sox go back to back one day so I'm a tad bias.

[a700hitter]

I thought it was Lester OR Ellsbury++ that the sox offered. 20/20 hindsights gives us the ability to know that would have been a better package than what they got either way. Honestly' date=' if we could have got Santana for Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Masterson, I wish we did it. I think we would have won the world series in '08 and one of my dreams is to see the Sox go back to back one day so I'm a tad bias.[/quote']That's right. There were to packages on the table-- one with Ellsbury and one with Lester. If the Ellsbury trade had been made, they might well have won it all in 2008.

[BeepBeepYoureDumb]

Daisuke was pitching well that year. He was great against the Rays in the playoffs too. Johan, Lester, Dice-K in the playoffs would have been lights out. Coco in CF wouldn't be too bad either, he played amazing defense.

[Wells]

Walrus and Wells back' date=' NICE![/quote']

 

haha hey MJ what's up?

[Rosey]

MJ? The real MJ? :thumbsup:

[Emmz]

You guys have no idea how angry the Twins fanbase was when they pulled the trigger for Gomez and some other useless junk. Gomez was considered a good defensive player, great even, with loads of speed and raw talent, but zero hitting.

 

It was the first of a parade of s***** moves made by Bill Smith, who is a horrendous GM in terms of trading. Terry Ryan used to get blasted for never making trades, Smith makes a lot of trades, none of them have been good, except the Hardy trade, who he then swapped for JIM EFFING HOEY. Smith sucks and needs to get canned just for all the bad trades. Seriously, Gomez for Santana when you could have had that awesome Red Sox deal. Then he trades Bartlett and Garza away for Delmon Young and some other junk, which might even be worse than the Santana trade, all things considered. I can't currently think of anything else he's done, but those are two awful trades.

[SoxSport]

You guys have no idea how angry the Twins fanbase was when they pulled the trigger for Gomez and some other useless junk. Gomez was considered a good defensive player, great even, with loads of speed and raw talent, but zero hitting.

 

It was the first of a parade of s***** moves made by Bill Smith, who is a horrendous GM in terms of trading. Terry Ryan used to get blasted for never making trades, Smith makes a lot of trades, none of them have been good, except the Hardy trade, who he then swapped for JIM EFFING HOEY. Smith sucks and needs to get canned just for all the bad trades. Seriously, Gomez for Santana when you could have had that awesome Red Sox deal. Then he trades Bartlett and Garza away for Delmon Young and some other junk, which might even be worse than the Santana trade, all things considered. I can't currently think of anything else he's done, but those are two awful trades.

 

Sure. But you don't know what else the Twins got under the table for Santana. The deal stunk on the surface, next to what the Yankees and Red Sox were offering. They clearly made the deal to move Santana to the NL--and to the Mets probably because the Mets have to compete with the Yankees in "mediatown" for audience.

Lots of good reasons to trade Santana to the Mets. None of them really related to the offers they got for him.

 

Funny things can happen in MLB with their anti-trust exemption.

 

For example, how many people know that the Yankees were responsible for KC getting the Philadelphia Athletics franchise--by steering the vote away from bidders who wanted to keep the As in Philly? Not many. But the Yankees for years afterward had a cozy relationship with the KC As before they went to Oakland.

[Flynnatic10]

Looking back, it was 50/50. If this trade happened, Johan could have turned out hella different.

[Spitball]

You guys have no idea how angry the Twins fanbase was when they pulled the trigger for Gomez and some other useless junk. Gomez was considered a good defensive player, great even, with loads of speed and raw talent, but zero hitting.

 

It was the first of a parade of s***** moves made by Bill Smith, who is a horrendous GM in terms of trading. Terry Ryan used to get blasted for never making trades, Smith makes a lot of trades, none of them have been good, except the Hardy trade, who he then swapped for JIM EFFING HOEY. Smith sucks and needs to get canned just for all the bad trades. Seriously, Gomez for Santana when you could have had that awesome Red Sox deal. Then he trades Bartlett and Garza away for Delmon Young and some other junk, which might even be worse than the Santana trade, all things considered. I can't currently think of anything else he's done, but those are two awful trades.

 

I agree. I was in Fort Myers this spring and talked to lots of Twins fans. Smith was a poor choice to replace Ryan. Personally, I believe they should have contacted Wayne Krivsky about running that team. He was not really given a fair shot in Cincinnati after leaving the twins. He is the one who engineered the Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena trade.

[a700hitter]

You guys have no idea how angry the Twins fanbase was when they pulled the trigger for Gomez and some other useless junk. Gomez was considered a good defensive player, great even, with loads of speed and raw talent, but zero hitting.

 

It was the first of a parade of s***** moves made by Bill Smith, who is a horrendous GM in terms of trading. Terry Ryan used to get blasted for never making trades, Smith makes a lot of trades, none of them have been good, except the Hardy trade, who he then swapped for JIM EFFING HOEY. Smith sucks and needs to get canned just for all the bad trades. Seriously, Gomez for Santana when you could have had that awesome Red Sox deal. Then he trades Bartlett and Garza away for Delmon Young and some other junk, which might even be worse than the Santana trade, all things considered. I can't currently think of anything else he's done, but those are two awful trades.

The Delmon Young for Garza and Bartlett trade made the Rays a playoff contender. I remember watching the Rays that Spring and telling my brother that they weren't going to be doormats anymore. I had seen a lot of Garza in ST with the Twins in prior years, and he was very successful at jamming our top hitters.

[Emmz]

Sure. But you don't know what else the Twins got under the table for Santana. The deal stunk on the surface, next to what the Yankees and Red Sox were offering. They clearly made the deal to move Santana to the NL--and to the Mets probably because the Mets have to compete with the Yankees in "mediatown" for audience.

Lots of good reasons to trade Santana to the Mets. None of them really related to the offers they got for him.

 

Funny things can happen in MLB with their anti-trust exemption.

 

For example, how many people know that the Yankees were responsible for KC getting the Philadelphia Athletics franchise--by steering the vote away from bidders who wanted to keep the As in Philly? Not many. But the Yankees for years afterward had a cozy relationship with the KC As before they went to Oakland.

 

You don't trade your star ace for junk, so I don't understand your logic. Gomez wasn't ever going to amount to much, and no one gives a s*** about or even knows about the under-the-table deals, including you.

[Taliesin]

Walrus and Wells back' date=' NICE![/quote']

 

Oh really Baseball Doctor...

[Taliesin]

We've been huddled in a 3 person cave since 2007. Watching The Game and not a minute of saber tooth tiger or WAR or WTF these people ramble on about ...sound and fury. The Song remains the same. You hit the ball, you catch the ball, you throw the ball. You pay attention to streaks and emotions and that certain joie de vivre. You can't quantify it. How is your assistant to the chiropractor business going...long time..no talk. Just hanging around The Peach Pit these days.

[jacksonianmarch]

didnt see your return either talies. How's it been?

[SoxSport]

You don't trade your star ace for junk' date=' so I don't understand your logic. Gomez wasn't ever going to amount to much, and no one gives a s*** about or even knows about the under-the-table deals, including you.[/quote']

 

 

Yikes. Thanks for agreeing--disagreeably.

When a deal makes no sense, you look for ways that it could make sense.

[Wells]

Looking back' date=' it was 50/50. If this trade happened, Johan could have turned out hella different.[/quote']

 

I'm gonna have to disagree.. I was so glad the Mutts took him on.. Johan was already in decline by that fateful winter and if history is any indicator if ever there was a team to overpay or deal for washed up (or close to washed up) talent, it's the Mets..

 

Tali, I like the geek stats.. have you seen wOBA yet?

[Palodios]

I'm gonna have to disagree.. I was so glad the Mutts took him on.. Johan was already in decline by that fateful winter and if history is any indicator if ever there was a team to overpay or deal for washed up (or close to washed up) talent, it's the Mets..

 

Tali, I like the geek stats.. have you seen wOBA yet?

 

He averaged a 2.80 ERA and exactly 200 IP for the first three years of his contract. If he recovers from his surgery, I'd bet he'll be back to being an ace by mid 2012.