Lavarnway REAL close

[SoxFanForsyth]

Remember when I said Salty is replaceable? I'll duck now :harhar:

 

It'll be interesting to see how he reacts to having to prep everyday for big league hitters, take the wear and tear on his knees on a daily basis, and adjust to big league pitching. Don't get me wrong, I think he could be an elite catcher, but its a transition especially going from DH/C to full time C.

[Dojji]

Replaceable isn't the right word, at least not in any meaningful sense. Lester, Beckett, Gonzo and Bard are all technically replaceable -- for which I'm grateful, as all will eventually be replaced.

 

Counting on Lavarnway to replace Saltalamacchia any time in the next 3 years is too hopeful. This is a kid with a lot to learn before he should be let to be a fulltime starting catcher for a major contender, even if he ultimately succeeds at becoming one. The bat is for real, the arm is solid, the glove isn't bad, but he's still putting the package together as a whole and that's a process that will take until he's 30 or so, like it does for any other potential catching star

[ORS]

Replaceable isn't the right word, at least not in any meaningful sense. Lester, Beckett, Gonzo and Bard are all technically replaceable -- for which I'm grateful, as all will eventually be replaced.

 

Counting on Lavarnway to replace Saltalamacchia any time in the next 3 years is too hopeful. This is a kid with a lot to learn before he should be let to be a fulltime starting catcher for a major contender, even if he ultimately succeeds at becoming one. The bat is for real, the arm is solid, the glove isn't bad, but he's still putting the package together as a whole and that's a process that will take until he's 30 or so, like it does for any other potential catching star

30 or so? That's a bit much. That puts him on the downside of his prime. If he's not ready to catch until he's 30 or so, then they should give up on the idea of him as a catcher.

 

Fortunately, for him and the Sox, I don't think this is the case. I think he'll be ready to start catching for the Sox as early as next year, and that may be what we see.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think the Sox will do what the Yankees SHOULD have done with Montero. Lavarnway isnt going to learn anything offensively from repeating AAA next yr. So, my guess is that Lavarnway breaks camp with the big club as the backup catcher and situational DH. Gets his feet wet offensively without over-exposing him while getting him used to big league game calling without the entire burden of the staff falling onto his shoulders. The Yankees should have done that this yr with Montero. Instead, the kid is bored in AAA with no real path to the bigs and has seen his production drop off. You reward kids who are killing it in the minors with call-ups, and the sox seem to do that. The Yankees have a system chock full of talent, but if they never dip into it for fear of "tarnishing the trade chips" then they'll never develop players like the sox do

[AtWork]

How do you know Montero's bored and he's not just struggling?

[ORS]

How do you know Montero's bored and he's not just struggling?

Easy, the Great and Formidable, The Jesus of Monteros, would never play at such a level if he actually cared.

[Dojji]

30 or so? That's a bit much. That puts him on the downside of his prime. If he's not ready to catch until he's 30 or so, then they should give up on the idea of him as a catcher.

 

Fortunately, for him and the Sox, I don't think this is the case. I think he'll be ready to start catching for the Sox as early as next year, and that may be what we see.

 

I didn't say that was he was ready to catch, I said that's when I could expect him to put the package together. Remember, kid started late, he has more to learn than most catchers at his stage of development. That's not saying he shouldn't play in the bigs as a catcher before then. He could probably skate on his bat for a few years until the other aspects catch up, heck it worked for Posada.

 

Point being, Lavarnway has a ton to learn and he may have to learn more of it in the big leagues than most catchers, that's all. I think he's better suited to be a starter for a small market team that needs to ramp up to contention for a few years and can afford to let a guy like him come along in his own time, than he would be trying to play for a perennial contender that needs its prospects to be ready right out of the chute.

[ORS]

I didn't say that was he was ready to catch, I said that's when I could expect him to put the package together. Remember, kid started late, he has more to learn than most catchers at his stage of development. That's not saying he shouldn't play in the bigs as a catcher before then. He could probably skate on his bat for a few years until the other aspects catch up, heck it worked for Posada.

 

Point being, Lavarnway has a ton to learn and he may have to learn more of it in the big leagues than most catchers, that's all. I think he's better suited to be a starter for a small market team that needs to ramp up to contention for a few years and can afford to let a guy like him come along in his own time, than he would be trying to play for a perennial contender that needs its prospects to be ready right out of the chute.

Wait, is he behind other catchers or on pace? In one post, he's on pace to become a "full package", whatever the f*** that subjective designator means, catcher in his 30's like everyone else. Now he's behind?

 

Do you even read what you are saying? Save us the mental diarrhea and put together a cogent, consistent point. It's like you are a "grass is always greener on my side of the fence" cliche generator.

[Dojji]

Is it really that difficult? His glove tools aren't bad, his performance in AAA is good, as a technical catcher he can probably get by, but the mental stuff, the stuff everyone expects of a catcher like pitchcalling and setting the defense, which can only come with reps, is going to take time with Lavarnway.

 

He's ready to catch now, but it's going to take time before he's ready to be a catcher. The distinction may sound small but you know as well as I do that it's fairly significant.

[Dojji]

Stumbled across this little tidbit via Soxprospects, the bit about Lavarnway's defense I found highly interesting.

 

When the Sox drafted Lavarnway out of Yale in the sixth round of the 2008 draft, they did so believing that he would hit (after all, as a sophomore, he led NCAA Division 1 in both batting average and slugging), but with little optimism about his ability to develop defensively to the point where he could be a big league catcher. After all, he had switched from the outfield to catcher as a sophomore, was limited to serving as a DH for much of his junior year by a hand injury and remained extremely crude when he was behind the plate.

 

In his time as a professional, however, Lavarnway has achieved what members of the organization describe as little short of stunning gains as a defensive catcher. He has become more athletic behind the plate, resulting in across-the-board improvements, particularly in his technique.

 

Between Double-A and Triple-A, he has thrown out 35 percent of would-be base stealers this year while committing just one error. The Sox have consistently seen him get pop times on home-to-second throws of 1.95-1.97 seconds, in line with a big league average. His blocking and receiving have both made significant advances thanks to his improved setup, athleticism and flexibility behind the plate.

 

“He’s so damn accurate. You never see him misfire because of the ability to get his legs under him and get the proper alignment. He’s got good throwing mechanics and put the ball right where he wants it,” said Sox roving catching instructor Chad Epperson. “With Lavarnway, you realize, ‘Damn, he’s just a results guy.’

 

“That’s the bottom line. If you put him and [former Sox minor league catcher Tim] Federowicz and [Triple-A catcher Luis] Exposito and watched them do a showcase, you’re going to look at Exposito and Federowicz and grade them out higher just on the look. But at the end of the day, when a manager goes out and fills out his game report, Lavarnway’s caught everything, he’s blocked everything and he’s thrown a guy out. You can’t turn your back on that.

“He may not be that flashy catcher, but he is a results guy, and at the end of the day, that’s what a big league club wants – results.”

 

Throughout the system, both evaluators and pitchers who have worked with Lavarnway suggest that he has made obvious strides, even as there is an acknowledgment that there are more that must be made. Yet the 24-year-old insists that he will do whatever it takes to establish his credentials as a solid defensive backstop who is capable of delivering well above-average offense.

“I do want to be known as a complete player. I’ve worked really hard to get myself to where I am. I’m going to continue to do that, because I don’t just want to be a bat,” said Lavarnway. “Being a quality defensive catcher in the big leagues is something that I want to do more than anything else. I’ll do what it takes to get there.”

 

“We’re very confident that he’s a future major league catcher,” said Hazen. “Everyone is entitled to their opinion. … [but] a lot of those same people [who doubt Lavarnway’s defensive abilities] probably thought that Kevin Youkilis couldn’t hit, and a lot of major league scouts that are talking probably said Dustin Pedroia won’t be a big league player.

 

“Given his makeup, his work ethic, where he’s come and the time he’s put in for the last four years, if there’s any guy I’m betting on to achieve his goal of being a major league catcher, it’s that guy,” he added.

http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2011/08/15/why-ryan-lavarnway-became-one-who-didnt-get-aw

[Palodios]

Very interesting. Just for everyone out there, Dojji pointed out a lot of positives, but didn't throw in all the negatives, so I'd definitely recommend reading the article.

[Dojji]

I wouldn't count most of Lavarnway's "negatives" as negatives, just points of skepticism.

 

To sum up, the issues with Lavarnway as a catcher:

 

1: he's raw, having not caught a lot of live games

2: His technique is a little awkward and does not look good to scouts

3: He's unproven even by minor league standards in the finer art of catching, such as gamecalling and setting the defense.

 

Honestly I was more focused on what the managers were saying about the dude's character, worth ethic, and ability to get the job done. You'll notice I highlighted nothing about the bat. The bat is there, the defensive tools are stronger than they looked like when he was drafted, and IMHO the rest will come with hard work and reps if he's g ot the kind or character that insists he do those things, and it looks like he's saying the right things at any rate.

 

I actually like the idea of having Salty and this guy jostling for playing time over the next couple years. I think Lavarnway's ceiling in the end is as high as Salty's ever was, and we could come down with 2 great catchers if things go really well.

[Palodios]

FYI, I didn't mean that as a criticism to you by any means, but the article points out a few things, like how he has only called 200 games in the minors. There is also a really tough thing for a lot of us to take--he needs a considerable amount of more time to develop his game-calling abilities.

 

They did mention something else that caught my eye-- he has the 4th most home runs in the minors this year.

[Dojji]

Yeah he's a slugging stud.

 

I suspect that his bat has dropped off at least partially because they've told him that he's done enough to earn promotion and he's focusing 100% on the defensive side of the ball.

 

We'll see this kid in September. I'm positive of that. Sooner if Varitek gets hurt.

[Dojji]

Scuttlebutt on Soxprospects is that this guy may be called up soon.

 

Wonder what that means for 'Tek. Is this guy gonna catch or is he a pure DH?

[a700hitter]

Scuttlebutt on Soxprospects is that this guy may be called up soon.

 

Wonder what that means for 'Tek. Is this guy gonna catch or is he a pure DH?

People in Doji's Splash Zone should put on their rain ponchos.

[33Innings]

Kind of strange that he's being called up now, right when he's in the middle of his worst slump of his season.

 

Not that you should invest every last penny in that fact, but I do wonder how effective he can be at the Major League level at this point in time. He has only five hits in over 40 at-bats in the month of August and he's suddenly looking at the prospect of facing a higher level of pitching while playing in front of substantially bigger crowds than what he's used to.

 

But sometimes peculiar things happen. Maybe this will somehow shake Lavarnway out of his slump. Another logical theory as to why he has plummeted so far after such an otherworldly start in Pawtucket is because Triple-A teams and pitchers have scouted him and figured out how to solve him. In that sense, he's now entering a new realm where he doesn't know his opponents that well and vice versa. So long as he doesn't succumb to the pressure of a bigger crowd, he has a shot to make an immediate impact.

[boston22407]

He is being called up cause youk went on the 15 day DL

[33Innings]

He is being called up cause youk went on the 15 day DL

 

I'm aware of that. I was just saying it's kind of unlucky timing, all things considered. If his MLB debut were planned in advance, it undoubtedly would have happened when he was performing and we'd probably have a more favorable prediction for his first game with Boston.

[Dojji]

Oh I dunno. He didn't look lost out there, he took some good cuts, put the ball in play for the most part. Things just didn't fall in for him.

[redsoxbeatz]

 

Can you imagine if Lavarnway could ever develop league average defense at catcher?

 

What is the league average currently?

[Station 13]

Lavarnway pick up his 17th homer (31st btw. AA/AAA)

[a700hitter]

Lavarnway pick up his 17th homer (31st btw. AA/AAA)

He put on some good ABs while he was with the Sox, but realistically he is probably just trade bait, because he can't play a position.

[Palodios]

It seems like the only teams in need of a 1B/DH type are the low budget teams. I'd be okay with him headlining a deal for a #2 type starter, or a quality shortstop, but besides that, he's probably more valuable continuing to try to work on catching.

[Dojji]

He put on some good ABs while he was with the Sox' date=' but realistically he is probably just trade bait, because he can't play a position.[/quote']

 

He didn't catch during his callup because he was replacing Ortiz. Tek and Salty were both healthy and available in every game Lavarnway played. Tito didn't hesitate to call on Lavarnway as a backup catcher the one time he needed him (I actually suspect that that was planned out by the FO as a reward/carrot for Lavarnway, and a "signal sent" to the league that they don't see the guy as a mere DH) so saying he "doesn't have a position" isn't borne out.

 

Right now the Red Sox are treating him like a fulltime catcher in every respect except that they want him to DH on days when he's not catching because they know what his bat can do. The only reason he doesn't catch nearly every day down there is because some days he does intensive catcher's drills to try to bring up his proficiency faster. (and because that allows another catcher, in this case Expo, to be doing the same thing).

 

Anyway the point is that he has a position. Ryan Lavarnway is a catcher. His glove is just a year or two behind his bat. Watchihg how he goes through a PA I see no reason not to call that bat potential big league all-star caliber right now. He's still got time to improve that glove, and if he's about a Saltalamacchia level catcher defensively (not eye-popping, but serviceable) the entire package is something you build franchises around.

[ORS]

Oh s***, the all-star kiss of death from Dojji (for the bat). Ryan, please don't go all Lars Anderson on us.

[Dojji]

Yeah well, I smartened up a little at least, I'm not proposing allstardom until the guy at least debuts now.

 

Seriously -- a player who can hit like Lavarnway would have a prayer to make all-star as the DH, as a catcher, he'd have to flame out or get hurt to fail to reach that milestone at least once.

[jacksonianmarch]

His throwing is pretty good, but from the sounds of it, he's got the ceiling of a Mike Napoli. Really a 1b/DH/3rd catcher. Not a bad ceiling as he obviously can hit. But he's way too slow behind the plate to catch

[Dojji]

And Jacko with the countercurse. Thanks man!

[Dojji]

So anyway, the question with Lavarnway is, are you prepared to put up with really bad defense for a year or two until he gets up to speed, and probably only mediocre defense after that, in order to get that bat into a skill position. He's got a good arm, and he's a Yale guy so he's got a good mind, it's a question of his athletic talents and lateral quickness, and his ability to gain from reps over time.

 

He'd be an ideal player to ship to a small market for something you really want that they have. A player like that whose best need is reps in the majors is a great fit for any team who has a few seasons to throw away before they're expected to win anythig. That would allow Lavarnway to either prove out as a catcher in the lost seasons and by the time the small market was ready to win, Lavs would be ready to help them -- or to DH or play first for them and live off his bat, whichever he proves.

 

Verdict; Trade him to Florida with a couple other decent prospects for Hanley Ramirez. A potentially elite offensive catcher is one of the few things you'd be able to get in the door with in a Hanley trade discussion. Of course the Marlins would need to believe he's actually a catcher, otherwise just keep him, we have a spot open for a C/DH type anyway coming right up.