Francona: Any lead safe?

[lasitter]

Anyone developed a metric for "bonehead" manager games lost vs duels brilliantly won? What would it look like for Francona?

 

Are we so grateful for past glories that he has a job for life?

 

I keep thinking there has to be a manager out there that could do a lot with this team / payroll.

[ORS]

If Lackey gets bombed today then Felix does his thing tomorrow, and the Sox get swept by the awful Mariners at Fenway, running their record to 11-16.....I think Francona should get the axe. I'm already on record stating that Magadan probably should be sitting on a hot seat right now, but if those things transpire, firing the hitting coach may not be a strong enough move/message from ownership.

[Palodios]

It is never going to happen. I was calling for Bogar and Farrell to get fired for how long?

 

I was incredibly optimistic about the last two games, but the simple fact is: Dice-k and Beckett's pitch counts got too high too quickly, and that can never be good for a pitcher's arm--especially with injury-prone players like Beckett and Dice-k. Beckett went 19 pitches over his previous season high, Daisuke went 19 pitches over his previous season high, and Lackey went 15 pitches over his previous season high last time around.

[ORS]

It is never going to happen. I was calling for Bogar and Farrell to get fired for how long?

 

I was incredibly optimistic about the last two games, but the simple fact is: Dice-k and Beckett's pitch counts got too high too quickly, and that can never be good for a pitcher's arm--especially with injury-prone players like Beckett and Dice-k. Beckett went 19 pitches over his previous season high, Daisuke went 19 pitches over his previous season high, and Lackey went 15 pitches over his previous season high last time around.

I agree that it won't happen. I just think it should happen. There's a complacency that seems to have set in under Francona. I realize the regular season is a marathon and not a sprint, which in past years has been one of his strengths, as his teams were fresh and his bench sharp going into October. That being said, some more aggressive managing, more attention to the matchups/performance/situation, probably squeezes another couple of wins out of this rough stretch, and with the way they started, those couple of wins could determine whether or not they make the playoffs. Francona's on auto-pilot, which is OK when the machine is running like you thought it would, but it's not, and his inaction is threatening to make October filled with tee times and not playoff baseball.

 

EDIT: What I'm saying is, there isn't one way to manage. You manage according to the situation, and this situation, IMO, calls for more managerial action. When everybody gets going, he can go back to his normal managerial philosophy. He's shown an ability to change the way he manages games in October, so he's got the ability. What's out of the norm for him is flipping that switch during the regular season.

[Bob_Boston]

I think Boston, in the long run, will miss John Farrell.

[Station 13]

It is never going to happen. I was calling for Bogar and Farrell to get fired for how long?

 

I was incredibly optimistic about the last two games, but the simple fact is: Dice-k and Beckett's pitch counts got too high too quickly, and that can never be good for a pitcher's arm--especially with injury-prone players like Beckett and Dice-k. Beckett went 19 pitches over his previous season high, Daisuke went 19 pitches over his previous season high, and Lackey went 15 pitches over his previous season high last time around.

 

It appeared they took Dice-K out of precautionary. His velocity dipped 5-7 miles to 87-88 when he was taken out. Expected to make next start.

[BSN07]

Magadan will get the axe before Tito ever will.

[SoxSport]

I agree that it won't happen. I just think it should happen. There's a complacency that seems to have set in under Francona.

 

I agree with this, and I have a whole thread on it somewhere here. It was also suggested by Mazz at the Globe that the team had become complacent. Complacent manager, complacent team--Mazz.

 

But that was before they swept the Angels, and all seemed OK. Now, everyone is not so sure.

 

To me, Tito's priorities seem more to stroking the players than winning games. Over the past few years since winning the last championship. I'm also not a big fan of his coaches. I thought Farrell was overrated--and may have been eased out--kicked upstairs somewhere else. Stealing is done mainly on the pitcher--not the catcher. But the catchers catch the blame on the Red Sox. I also think they miss their bench coach--who is now managing Houston. They aren't getting enough out of spring training, and one questions their regimen down there. Not enough emphasis on fundamentals.

 

Tito's main strength's are people strengths. That's why he's the manager. Organizations value that type of manager over all else. But if this team doesn't get out of the rut soon, there will be some pressure on the organization to provide answers. Changes are usually made from the bottom up--not the top down. That means the field management.

[Dojji]

LOL@Boston fans.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

LOL@Boston fans.

 

You've been here longer than me you should be used to this. We do bad we get angry at Francona, then they end up loving him at the end of the season.

[MANNYHOF24]

To be fair to Tito, there are like 15 guys on this team that have performed way below what everyone expected. That is not on Tito.

[SCM33]

To be fair to Tito' date=' there are like 15 guys on this team that have performed way below what everyone expected. That is not on Tito.[/quote']

 

I agree. He is not the one being paid big bucks to go out there and hit/pitch/field like s***.

 

 

A baseball manager has little to do that concerns the outcome of a baseball game. A baseball manager simply manages the collection of personalities around him. Not many have been better at it than Tito.

 

This is on the players.

[ORS]

I agree. He is not the one being paid big bucks to go out there and hit/pitch/field like s***.

 

 

A baseball manager has little to do that concerns the outcome of a baseball game. A baseball manager simply manages the collection of personalities around him. Not many have been better at it than Tito.

 

This is on the players.

One, if managers aren't all that important on the outcome of games, then it won't matter if they fire Francona to send a message to the guily parties, the players.

 

Two, isn't inspiring performance part of managing personalities? That roster in Tampa is a wet napkin compared to the roster in Boston. Drew Carey has them playing pretty good.

[SCM33]

One, if managers aren't all that important on the outcome of games, then it won't matter if they fire Francona to send a message to the guily parties, the players.

 

Two, isn't inspiring performance part of managing personalities? That roster in Tampa is a wet napkin compared to the roster in Boston. Drew Carey has them playing pretty good.

 

One, it wont matter, the players are getting paid either way.

 

Two, they (Tampa Bay) have a roster full of mostly young talented players. Maddon has done an admirable job with those young players (since they have drafted high for almost a decade). I compare that with a college coach getting the most out of a talented group of college players who are looking for the big pay day. I do not compare that with a group of established major leaguers who already make the big bucks like the Red Sox. The Red Sox already have a great manager capable of managing their personalities.

 

This is on the players. They have to decide whether or not they want to earn their salaries. The talent is already there. Why does a manager decide whether or not they want the most out of their abilities? Lineups doesnt change that. You think Joe Madden would change JD Drews approach?

 

The players like to play for Tito, he is a players manager. You think they would play better for a guy like Showalter because he runs his mouth?

 

This is on the players. If they fire Tito, more bad than good will come of it as they will feel they failed the guy who believed in their million dollar abilities.

[Palodios]

Beckett is still feeling the effects of throwing 125 pitches against the Angels on April 21. He was pulled after 92 pitches in Baltimore on Wednesday. Boston doesn't plan to pitch him again until Wednesday at the earliest, giving him six days of rest instead of four. Beckett is scheduled for a side session Monday.

 

Grrrrrrr

[Station 13]

Grrrrrrr

 

Whatever it is, Beckett's health will always be in question the rest of this contract.

[SoxSport]

Grrrrrrr

 

Beckett is pretty fragile--for such a big strapping guy:rolleyes:

And the Red Sox like to stroke their pitchers with the pitch count machine.

 

Read an article the other day quoting Halladay as saying absolute pitch counts aren't important--it's more how the pitcher feels. How tough the game has been. Sometimes, 90 pitches are tougher than 130 pitches. I'd like to see Tito try to figure that one out.

 

Of course, Halladay can throw a strike in his sleep.

[Six4Three]

One, it wont matter, the players are getting paid either way.

 

Two, they (Tampa Bay) have a roster full of mostly young talented players. Maddon has done an admirable job with those young players (since they have drafted high for almost a decade). I compare that with a college coach getting the most out of a talented group of college players who are looking for the big pay day. I do not compare that with a group of established major leaguers who already make the big bucks like the Red Sox. The Red Sox already have a great manager capable of managing their personalities.

 

This is on the players. They have to decide whether or not they want to earn their salaries. The talent is already there. Why does a manager decide whether or not they want the most out of their abilities? Lineups doesnt change that. You think Joe Madden would change JD Drews approach?

 

The players like to play for Tito, he is a players manager. You think they would play better for a guy like Showalter because he runs his mouth?

 

This is on the players. If they fire Tito, more bad than good will come of it as they will feel they failed the guy who believed in their million dollar abilities.

 

 

Maddon is a poor comparison because he and Tito are cut from the same cloth. Easily the two most player-friendly managers I've ever seen. Maddon doesn't even believe in batting practice. The one difference between them is that the Red Sox players would bleed for Tito and the Rays players are merely enjoying the laid back atmosphere under Maddon. Getting a stacked team of well paid Red Sox vets to be that loyal to a manager is very rare. Any drastic move by the front office or Tito at this stage would be a huge over-reaction. Just as the Yankees' handling of Torre was when he departed.

 

As of this date in the season, I'd still take the current Red Sox manager, team, and record over the current Yankees manager, team, and record. Everybody just be cool.

 

And contrary to popular belief, the Rays roster is not full of #1 draft picks. Or even that many first round picks. The only #1 pick on the team is Price who pitched just 14 innings in their 2008 run. Besides him, just Upton, Longoria and Niemann are active first round picks. The credit to that team goes almost completely to Andrew Friedman for making brilliant trades and well-timed contract extensions.

 

Back to the Red Sox: Tito is the best man for that job and will never be fired.

[lasitter]

Back to the Red Sox: Tito is the best man for that job and will never be fired.

I just think there should be more (a LOT more) to managing that stroking players' egos.

 

Earl Weaver knew how to take the ball out of a pitcher's hands when he was loosing it but before the ball game was lost.

 

I don't think that's a skill Francona will ever acquire.

[Palodios]

I think the importance of stroking egos has changed dramatically since this new group of players has come through town. Francona was a lot more valuable when he had a lot of raw talent players with big personalities (aka, idiots) that he needed to handle. Right now, the team is incredibly professional, and besides Pedroia, how many big personality guys will be on this team next year?

[Ravenous916]

what more do you want? 2 WS wins since he became sox manager. 2 in 7 years. (more than anyone else in that time frame) I can't believe that the spare decision here or there is worth him getting fired over just because in retrospect it didn't work out. Its a long season, I think Francona thinks ahead, rather than obsessing about putting Jenks in, and then he blew the lead. That's the fans job. Francona should have been manager of the year last year.

[Palodios]

Say what you want about the rest of the season, the game last night was won and lost by the coaching staff.

 

Putting Wakefield in a one-run game, with someone on first and third is simply idiotic. There are so many things that can go wrong to lose them that game-- passed ball, sac fly, even a hit or two walks. This is not a matter of hindsight where it makes sense at the time, and not so much afterwards, this was a bad idea at the time, and it lost them the game.

[SoxSport]

Say what you want about the rest of the season, the game last night was won and lost by the coaching staff.

 

Putting Wakefield in a one-run game, with someone on first and third is simply idiotic. There are so many things that can go wrong to lose them that game-- passed ball, sac fly, even a hit or two walks. This is not a matter of hindsight where it makes sense at the time, and not so much afterwards, this was a bad idea at the time, and it lost them the game.

 

I don't know if they had any other options than Wakefield at that point. That's the danger of shuffling a new pitcher in every inning. You go through 3 or 4 guys, and if the game goes to extra innings, you have nobody left.

[SoxSport]

Last night, Beckett is throwing a shutout in a 1-0 game. Tito takes him out after 7 innings and 103 pitches.

With a depleted bullpen.

 

You coddle your millionaire starters like that, and they will be a bunch of complacent pussies before long.

 

Tito just isn't aggressive enough.

[Palodios]

Last night, Beckett is throwing a shutout in a 1-0 game. Tito takes him out after 7 innings and 103 pitches.

With a depleted bullpen.

 

You coddle your millionaire starters like that, and they will be a bunch of complacent pussies before long.

 

Tito just isn't aggressive enough.

 

Last time he left Beckett in for 125 pitches, and the following game, he pitched his worst game all season with reported arm soreness, and his start was pushed back a few days.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Last night, Beckett is throwing a shutout in a 1-0 game. Tito takes him out after 7 innings and 103 pitches.

With a depleted bullpen.

 

You coddle your millionaire starters like that, and they will be a bunch of complacent pussies before long.

 

Tito just isn't aggressive enough.

 

Yeah, I mean 100-110 is about what you want to see from your starters in their first 8-10 starts of the year. When it's June or July, you can push them to 110-115, but you want to save some bullets for August and September games. Plus, Aceves and Papelbon should be able to come in and shut the door. A BS balk call and a broken bat single is what killed us. It's not like Beckett came out after 7 IP and 93 pitches with a 3-0 lead that our bullpen blew. Span hit a broken bat dribbler to Youk, got a balk call, and Kubel hit a broken bat blooper over Pedey's head. Not a single hard hit ball, so I don't second guess Francona there.

 

Plus, looking forward, Beckett is going up against the Yankees on Sunday. You know they're going to battle and drive his pitch count up. I'd rather him throw 7 IP and 120 pitches there than 8 or 9 IP and 120-125 against the Twins.

[SoxSport]

Pitch counts are way overblown. There is no medical or scientific basis for it. I read an article on it where Halliday said basically it depends how you feel. How tough your pitches have been. I've talked to other pitchers in the past who have said the same. I don't know where this stuff started.

 

It used to be 120 pitches was the rough limit. now it's down to 100 pitches.

 

Does it make sense for a $15million dollar starter to pitch 5 or 6 innings (Buchholz pitched 5 the other night), and replace him with ten cent relievers for the rest of game? OK. Maybe the closer is close to the level of the starter. But the rest are not. That's the easiest way to lose a game. Trotting out half your bullpen to finish a game. Somebody is bound to get hit.

 

Pitch counts have screwed up the game. The old common sense no longer prevails. You replace a guy when he's getting hit. Some days he doesn't have it. That's the time for relief help. But managers now leave a guy in to get bombed--losing the game--instead of using their relievers. And they take a starter out of a quality start just on pitch counts--even when he is dominant. The result is they don't have relievers when they need them--like last night in the 8th inning. Actually, Beckett should have pitched the 8th inning. He might have got the win. He certainly deserved it.

 

Some of you kids out there don't remember the game before pitch counts. Incredibly, it was played with more common sense in those days. The pitch count thing is way out of whack.

 

You condition a guy to throw 100 pitches, that's all he can throw. It's in the conditioning.

When Schilling pitched for the Phillies, he could throw 120-130 pitches in his sleep. He got in trouble only when Tito left him in for 140-145 pitches. That was a long time ago for Tito.

[Palodios]

Pitch counts are way overblown. There is no medical or scientific basis for it. I read an article on it where Halliday said basically it depends how you feel. How tough your pitches have been. I've talked to other pitchers in the past who have said the same. I don't know where this stuff started.

 

You're comparing an injury-prone pitcher like Beckett to a pitcher that has been incredibly healthy for a decade and has pitched more innings than pretty much everyone. Beckett is not Halladay. He is not Sabathia. He is not Pedro. Comparing him to future hall of famers is not going to gain you any ground on this discussion.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Relievers are definitely more valuable in this era than in prior eras, but the fact remains that guys like Beckett condition to try to go around 6-7 IP and throw 100-110 pitches. That's averaging anywhere from 14 to 18 pitches per inning, which is about right.

 

You also have to realize that this is the post-steroid era (sort of), and because of the steroid era, pitchers were throwing less innings because hitters had an edge, requiring a much bigger burden to be put on the bullpen. Now that the added emphasis has been placed on the bullpen, why wouldn't you try to save the bullets from your SP and get them through 6-7 IP and hand it over to Aceves or Bard then Papelbon?

 

You have to think, we've got Beckett and Lackey through 2014, not just for 2011. And it's not just a $15mm investment. It's a $60-$80mm investment. We don't want to throw them 240-250 IP in 2011 and 2012 and then have two dead arm #4 and #5 starters for 2 years at $30mm per year.

[DirtDog]

While I agree the Red Sox want to protect their investments, you're assuming that the injuries stem from overuse. There is no evidence behind that. Beckett had back problems last year and before that had no prior history of any major arm troubles. Much like you're inferring that you can't take results and attribute them directly from an action in this case:

 

Span hit a broken bat dribbler to Youk, got a balk call, and Kubel hit a broken bat blooper over Pedey's head. Not a single hard hit ball, so I don't second guess Francona there

 

You can't infer that Beckett was ineffective as a direct result of being left out there too long in his last start. While it may be true, you can't state as a fact it is. It's an easy excuse for him to use, but you never heard it out of his mouth, or anyone else's. You're also infering that "arm soreness" is something unusual. Every pitcher who throws 100+ pitches many of them 95 mph has arm soreness after a game. Why do you think they wrap themselves up?