2011 Lineups Thread

[Dipre]

Because what we have as catcher is defensive wizardry personified. At least Napoli can definitely hit.

 

Wait, aren't you a fan of upside? Because Salty has the potential to become a better catcher on both sides of the ball than Napoli (remember how we argued last year that with regular playing time he wasn't as good a hitter as you pimped him out to be, and lo and behold, he played over 114 games for the first time in his career, had an OPS of .784 instead of the low .800 you suggested, and had a miserable .316 OBP to go with his horrendous defense at both catcher and first?), if you like potential on one player, why not like it on another one? At his worst, if healthy, Salty will be a better defender who gets on base more and makes contact on a more regular basis, and you sure like to contradict yourself, because that was exactly your argument for defending a possible Martin signing (and i agreed with you on that one) because OBP is where it's at, unless your power is absolutely marginal.

[Dojji]

In my mind Napoli would replace Tek, not Salty. That has the advantage of playing up Napoli's and Salty's advantageous platoon splits.

[a700hitter]

A700, I appreciate your support for Ortiz but I think when we've seen Gonzalez for a year or two there will be no doubt why Gonzalez is the better hitter.

 

Gonzalez should be the type of hitter who has very few holes, who controls ABs and who drives the ball consistently to all fields. Ortiz has obvious holes and can't hit lefties. In his best moments he and Gonzalez might be indecipherable, but Gonzalez will be that way much more consistently moving forward.

 

I still like

 

Ellsbury

Crawford

Pedroia

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Lowrie

Drew

Salty

 

...but I can see switching Lowrie and Salty so the catcher isn't turning over the lineup.

It has nothing to do with supporting Ortiz. It's just a fact that there are only a small handful of hitters that hit right handed pitching like Ortiz. I'm not advocating that he hit third or fourth in the order either. I'm just saying that against right handed pitching there is little difference between Ortiz and AGon- a nice problem for a manager to have (youk, AGon and Ortiz take your pick for 3,4,5) Let's not forget that AGon is hitting his prime and Ortiz is sliding out of his. Yet, even in his decline, Ortiz is a beast against right handed pitching. People tend to forget how good this guy was.

 

Unless Ellsbury produces by getting on base at a .360 clip or better, I'd drop him to the 9th spot. I'm not a fan of extending a batting order so that it looks stronger and deeper. I come out of the shoot with my top guys one after the other. I don't like starting the game with an out. The top 5 weapons should go at the top of the order-- in no particular order- - Pedroia, Crawford, Youkilis, AGon, and Ortiz.

[Dipre]

Except that Varitek can actually catch, makes little money, is a good mentor to Salty (probably main reason they brought him back) a number of Sox pitchers (Beckett mostly) feel comfortable pitching to him, and he doesn't cost prospects from an already depleted system.

[Dojji]

Except that Varitek can actually catch' date=' makes little money, is a good mentor to Salty (probably main reason they brought him back) a number of Sox pitchers (Beckett mostly) feel comfortable pitching to him, and he doesn't cost prospects from an already depleted system.[/quote']

 

Two years ago I would have agreed 100%, but what of Tek's remaining catching skills hasn't dulled badly with age since 2007? He's got no arm, his pop time is down, he was never that great as a reciever or plate blocker (wasn't a weakness of his but at the same time... well... Wakefield). Gamecalling is as good as ever I suppose. Still, the package defensively that Varitek can offer is hardly eye-opening anymore.

[Keeper]

I would rather have Napoli than the Salty/Tek platoon that could potentially be disastrous. Napoli isn't a very good catcher, but then neither was V-Mart.

[Dipre]

First off, i think Varitek's offense is being underrated. He's an injury risk, but when healthy, he can still absolutely hammer lefties, and while i agree that his catching skills have diminished, he still offers an overall better package than Napoli (who also has a noodle arm and is a stone wall behind the plate).

 

Now as a hitter and overall option against lefties, i never said i wouldn't rather have Napoli, but how do you realistically make that happen with all the moves that have been made?

 

How do you fit him into payroll (he made 3.6 mill last year, and is arb elegible, so his receiving a raise is obvious)? Who do you trade for him? And is it worth the money and prospects it would take to acquire him to be a part-time catcher?

 

It raises the questions of diminishing returns and the value of the overall package a player brings to the table when you can have someone who, while older, provides similar production at a fraction of the cost and without the cost of prospects or long-term commitment.

 

Also, you just can't compare V-Mart to Napoli. V-Mart was a superior ballplayer to Napoli in absolutely every aspect of the game.

[Plumpamania]

Dipre knock it off with the common sense around here, it's Christmas damnit.

[Keeper]

First off, i think Varitek's offense is being underrated. He's an injury risk, but when healthy, he can still absolutely hammer lefties, and while i agree that his catching skills have diminished, he still offers an overall better package than Napoli (who also has a noodle arm and is a stone wall behind the plate).

 

Now as a hitter and overall option against lefties, i never said i wouldn't rather have Napoli, but how do you realistically make that happen with all the moves that have been made?

 

How do you fit him into payroll (he made 3.6 mill last year, and is arb elegible, so his receiving a raise is obvious)? Who do you trade for him? And is it worth the money and prospects it would take to acquire him to be a part-time catcher?

 

It raises the questions of diminishing returns and the value of the overall package a player brings to the table when you can have someone who, while older, provides similar production at a fraction of the cost and without the cost of prospects or long-term commitment.

 

Also, you just can't compare V-Mart to Napoli. V-Mart was a superior ballplayer to Napoli in absolutely every aspect of the game.

 

I'm not saying getting Napoli was plausible. I'm merely saying I would prefer him over Salty and Tek. I also wasn't directly comparing him to V-Mart. Of course, V-Mart is better. That wasn't my point. My point is they are both s***** catchers that you can live with because of their bats.

[sandiegosoxfan]

There seem to be a number of catchers who will be free agents in 2012. I'd like to see Theo make this is next investment assuming Salty doesn't surprise by being significantly above average and stay healthy for a full season.

 

I'd like to hear the group's thoughts on Kelly Shoppach, Chris Snyder and Yadier Molina.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

My opinion on the three catchers you mentioned above.

 

Kelly Shoppach: He's the worst out of the group. He didn't have good numbers last season. I'd say no to this.

 

Chris Snyder:LOL Pirates are they still even a team? It's rare to catch them on T.V. Anyways he came off a decent season I guess. Not the best but we're talking upgrading Salty here.

 

Yadier Molina:If I had to pick out if the three it would be Molina. Don't think it needs an explanation. He put up better numbers than both of them.

[Will617]

Most optimized lineup? Not what you'd think, and certainly not what will actually happen.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/offseason-notes-featuring-an-optimized-sox-lineup/

[Ravenous916]

pedroia®, crawford(L), youk®, ortiz(L), gonz(L), Salt/Tek (S),drew(L), scutaro®, ells(L)

pedroia ® crawford(L), youk®, gonz(L), cameron®, Salt/Tek(S), drew(L), scutaro®, ells(L)

 

almost impossible decision when you factor in all the diff concerns:

 

crawford cant lead off, ells isnt ready to lead off, need youk behind base stealers because he is patient, ortiz needs protection to be effective, plus you have to balance out R and L. I'm also not crazy about gonz 5th, but what are you gonna do? Makes me feel like if ortiz doesn't hit well this year he's gotta go.

 

One big damn headache for francona, eventhough every says its a good prob to have, the first time someone shuts down a (L)(L) back to back his nuts are on the block in the media.

[BSN07]

the first time someone shuts down a (L)(L) back to back his nuts are on the block in the media.

 

I don't know why. I think having a rotation of R L(or L R) through out the line up is more of a luxury then necessity.

[DirtDog]

Phillies had L, L, L for a while in Utley, Howard and Ibanez if I remember correctly.

[Ravenous916]

I don't know why. I think having a rotation of R L(or L R) through out the line up is more of a luxury then necessity.

 

people love to give Tito s***. no one would care/notice if we had not signed two lefties. oh well, its not like a lefty can't hit a southpaw.

 

I trust Francona to make the right decision, he's earned it.

[Dipre]

The Sox have examples of not one, but two lefties who can't hit lefties: Ortiz (.670 OPS against them last three years), Crawford (.697 career OPS against them).

 

Only in situations like that is not having two consecutive lefties a necessity.

[Ravenous916]

The Sox have examples of not one, but two lefties who can't hit lefties: Ortiz (.670 OPS against them last three years), Crawford (.697 career OPS against them).

 

Only in situations like that is not having two consecutive lefties a necessity.

 

I agree... reminds me that Ortiz is flat out embarrassing against lefties

[example1]

I'm not sure how much I like Crawford in the #3 spot. I didn't love that it was common knowledge that he would hit 3rd. Never made much sense.

 

After he was initially signed I proposed (along with a few others here) the idea of having him hit #2 with Pedroia hitting 3rd, and I think I'm still in favor of that idea:

 

Ellsbury

Crawford

Pedroia

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Drew/Cameron

Salty

Scutaro

 

It just seems like the #3 hitter's job in this lineup should be to drive the ball and be a really tough out, especially with such tremendous hitters behind him. That's Pedroia, not Crawford. Crawford can give up outs, put pressure on the defense, as a lefty he can move Ellsbury over if he's at 2nd by pulling the ball, rather than hitting it the other way. He won't hit into double plays and he should be able to be aggressive on the basepaths with Pedroia at the plate. Seems like there's a lot of good reasons.

 

To me, Ellsbury seems to be a much better hitter than he was when he first came up. All through ST, in today's game, and even at the end of the 2009 season he was getting beat by fewer fastballs, able to foul pitches off, responding well to offspeed stuff, etc., I think that he and Crawford could more than hold their own against a LHP brought in to face them.

 

What do others think? Pedroia and Crawford are both pretty ideal #2 hitters, but to me Pedroia is the better #3 hitter of the two.

[SCM33]

Against RHH I proposed a while back:

 

Drew

Crawford

Pedroia

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Salty

Scutaro

Ellsbury.....when they bring in a tough lefty, Cameron can hit for Drew or Crawford at the top of the lineup.

 

Drew is their best OB player (hurts me to say it). Get him on in front of the big guys. Ellsbury turns over the lineup with speed at the bottom. When the lineup turns over Drew takes a ton of pitches to allow Ellsbury to take his shot at 2B as well as make pitchers work. Crawford becomes a second nightmare in the lineup....alll setting up Pedroia, Gonzalez and Youk in the middle.

 

Again, a leadoff hitter only leads off once a game. The lineup needs to be organized for overall strength and matchups.

[SoxSport]

This is a learning process for Tito. He has to figure out where the two new guys fit in the lineup.

Off yesterday, he has to be thinking AdGon is my best hitter; he bats 3rd. Crawford bats 5th.

Everything else looks OK. Except I wish he had left Wheeler in there in the 8th.

 

I read this morning Bard thinks he threw OK. He needs to look at the film. Not enough 98 heat, kid.

[ORS]

I'm not sure how much I like Crawford in the #3 spot. I didn't love that it was common knowledge that he would hit 3rd. Never made much sense.

 

After he was initially signed I proposed (along with a few others here) the idea of having him hit #2 with Pedroia hitting 3rd, and I think I'm still in favor of that idea:

 

Ellsbury

Crawford

Pedroia

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Drew/Cameron

Salty

Scutaro

 

It just seems like the #3 hitter's job in this lineup should be to drive the ball and be a really tough out, especially with such tremendous hitters behind him. That's Pedroia, not Crawford. Crawford can give up outs, put pressure on the defense, as a lefty he can move Ellsbury over if he's at 2nd by pulling the ball, rather than hitting it the other way. He won't hit into double plays and he should be able to be aggressive on the basepaths with Pedroia at the plate. Seems like there's a lot of good reasons.

 

To me, Ellsbury seems to be a much better hitter than he was when he first came up. All through ST, in today's game, and even at the end of the 2009 season he was getting beat by fewer fastballs, able to foul pitches off, responding well to offspeed stuff, etc., I think that he and Crawford could more than hold their own against a LHP brought in to face them.

 

What do others think? Pedroia and Crawford are both pretty ideal #2 hitters, but to me Pedroia is the better #3 hitter of the two.

And Gonzalez is better than Pedroia for that role. Gonzalez is the Sox best hitter, he should hit 3rd, all other lineup considerations should come after that, IMO. It seems Francona has placed a higher priority on having both Ellsbury and Crawford near the top for their speed, which I think is a mistake. I don't care which of the two is hitting at the top, let the better man take the spot and run with it...literally in this case, but Pedroia is best suited in the #2 slot, with Gonzalez heading up the heart of the order.

[BSN07]

I'm not sure how much I like Crawford in the #3 spot. I didn't love that it was common knowledge that he would hit 3rd. Never made much sense.

 

After he was initially signed I proposed (along with a few others here) the idea of having him hit #2 with Pedroia hitting 3rd, and I think I'm still in favor of that idea:

 

Ellsbury

Crawford

Pedroia

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Drew/Cameron

Salty

Scutaro

 

It just seems like the #3 hitter's job in this lineup should be to drive the ball and be a really tough out, especially with such tremendous hitters behind him. That's Pedroia, not Crawford. Crawford can give up outs, put pressure on the defense, as a lefty he can move Ellsbury over if he's at 2nd by pulling the ball, rather than hitting it the other way. He won't hit into double plays and he should be able to be aggressive on the basepaths with Pedroia at the plate. Seems like there's a lot of good reasons.

 

To me, Ellsbury seems to be a much better hitter than he was when he first came up. All through ST, in today's game, and even at the end of the 2009 season he was getting beat by fewer fastballs, able to foul pitches off, responding well to offspeed stuff, etc., I think that he and Crawford could more than hold their own against a LHP brought in to face them.

 

What do others think? Pedroia and Crawford are both pretty ideal #2 hitters, but to me Pedroia is the better #3 hitter of the two.

 

Crawford in the three spot is awful to watch. He looked like a fish out of water yesterday. Flailing all over the damn place. I'm hoping the move Agon there eventually and they have Crawford there now to limit Agons AB's as they ease him in after his shoulder issues.

 

I still say having Agon, Youk and Crawford 3-4-5 is the best option overall. Crawford doesn't want to lead off. Pedroia is a better #2 hitter and Crawford is awful in the #3 spot.

[Dojji]

Actually Youks is a little better overall hitter than Gonzo, if you look at all facets of hitting and not just power -- he hits for a higher average and puts the ball in play better, which is odd for a guy who came up at first as a walks-first hitter, but he made that sea change a few years ago and it should surprise no one now. Gonzo's offense is locked into power making him the ideal #4 type. I'm not taking anything away from Gonzo as an amazing slugger, but purely as a balanced all around hitter, Youks is a little better.

 

A modern style lineup might resemble:

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Youkilis

Gonzalez

Crawford

Pedroia

Ortiz

Drew

Saltalamacchia

Lowrie

[ORS]

Actually Youks is a little better overall hitter than Gonzo, if you look at all facets of hitting and not just power -- he hits for a higher average and puts the ball in play better, which is odd for a guy who came up at first as a walks-first hitter, but he made that sea change a few years ago and it should surprise no one now. Gonzo's offense is locked into power making him the ideal #4 type. I'm not taking anything away from Gonzo as an amazing slugger, but purely as a balanced all around hitter, Youks is a little better.

 

A modern style lineup might resemble:

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Youkilis

Gonzalez

Crawford

Pedroia

Ortiz

Drew

Saltalamacchia

Lowrie

I think you'll find that Gonzalez is actually better after a year in Freeway, all around better.

 

And, I'd love it if Pedroia could come to bat twice each turn of the line up, but I don't see that happening.

[Dipre]

I think you'll find that Gonzalez is actually better after a year in Freeway' date=' all around better.[/b']

 

 

Wholeheartedly agree. The fact that he played in Death Valley while Youk plays in hitter's heaven should not be understated. The statistics back it up too.

 

On to the topic of lineup construction, i am a firm advocate of an Ellsbury-Crawford-Pedroia 1-2-3 with Gonzales hitting fourth and Youkilis fifth. I think you could make the case that because of his insane contact abilities, and the power surge he was showing last year, he could be considered the "best" overall hitter on the team, and having him bat third would, because of that, make sense.

 

Also, the idea of Drew leading off doesn't seem particularly necessary with Ellsbury hitting like his life depends on it since the beginning of Spring Training and how much Drew lengthens the lineup when hitting at the bottom of it.

 

My ideal lineup:

 

Ellsbury

Crawford

Pedroia

Gonzales

Youkilis

Ortiz

Saltalamacchia

Drew

Scutaro

[Dojji]

Whoops. I was wondering why I wound up with a 10 man lineup.

 

I do think that any lineup you create for maximim offensive impact should have Lowrie in it as a SS. He could drop off a lot as a hitter and still be better than Scutaro and on days when he isn't subbing at one of the other infield spots or DH, he should be playing short.

[Dipre]

Your lineup has 10 players. Also, unsurprisingly, no Scutaro. He's starting:

 

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgr525GWgh1qa1saxo1_500.jpg

[example1]

Wholeheartedly agree. The fact that he played in Death Valley while Youk plays in hitter's heaven should not be understated. The statistics back it up too.

 

On to the topic of lineup construction, i am a firm advocate of an Ellsbury-Crawford-Pedroia 1-2-3 with Gonzales hitting fourth and Youkilis fifth. I think you could make the case that because of his insane contact abilities, and the power surge he was showing last year, he could be considered the "best" overall hitter on the team, and having him bat third would, because of that, make sense.

 

I agree. I think for the most part ORS is right that Gonzo is the best hitter, but Ellsbury, Crawford and Pedroia are all such good table-setters that it seems having all 3 hit before Gonzo and Youk will give them more RBI opportunities. A good argument could be made for having Ellsbury or Crawford at the bottom of the order, but Ellsbury is playing too well and Crawford isn't being paid to be a #9 hitter.

 

I just don't see them hitting Pedroia 3rd any time soon, however. I'm not sure why, but it wasn't something they messed with in spring training. Why the idea of having Ellsbury and Crawford hit next to each other seems like something they don't want to do is beyond me. Perhaps that's where this is inevitably going and they wanted to stroke Crawford's ego by putting him 3rd. That may be fine against RHP, but against LHP it's a vacuum at the 3 spot, which makes little sense.

 

 

As for who is better between Youkilis and Gonzo, I lean toward Adrian, but not by much. Youkilis really is an elite hitter. Not just good, elite. I think that's mostly because of his very consistent OBP skills and the fact that he's added power.

 

Over Youk's last 383 games (1644 PA): .308/.404/.560/.964.

 

That's pretty damn impressive in the AL East.

[ORS]

Well, you can get the benefit having those guys set the table consecutively via hitting one 9th and having that group go before the heart when the lineup flips. Same effect, just one less time per game...and you don't start the game with your best hitter hitting 5th like we saw yesterday, which is just flat out stupid.