Is Victor Martinez the solution at catcher

[ORS]

What about the four pitches to Johnson? Did you think all of them were balls? Didn't think so.

It's interesting, this little fantasy world you live in where it's acceptable to ask someone a question while assuming the answer, as you have done here. No wonder you think you do so well in arguments, you've assigned your opponents responses in your mind that you credit yourself with defeating. Nevermind the reality of their responses. For instance, every pitch to Johnson was borderline, ie, the ump could have gone either way with them, but nothing Teagarden did impacted that.

 

None of this changes the fact that he missed nine pitches.

No, it doesn't change that, but that doesn't mean what you want it to. Six of those 9 were in the lower end of the zone, where Timmons wasn't calling strikes, two were higher than any other called strike outside the strikezone, and one was higher than any called strike all night. There is no other comparable pitch to point to and call these the fault of the catcher.

 

Keep trying.

[yeszir]

ORS WITH THE QUOTATION NAME CHANGE!

 

[Dipre]

Another note....

 

 

EVERYONE here knows you lie to try and prove a point. EVERYONE. Casual posters, mods...EVERYONE. Can I be more clear on this?

 

You may not agree with me. A lot of people do, a lot of people don't. However, I'm honest in my posts, and people here appreciate that. I'm getting tired of the biggest liar here accusing me of lying. The next time you do it, I won't be as nice as I've been.

 

Here, for all the people who want to see the video that I watched last night, Mitch Williams breaking down CJ Wilson, here is the link. Unlike you, I don't make s*** up.

 

If you want to skip to the point, go to about the two minute mark. Apparently, Mitch Williams is not as qualified as Dipre is with his Gameday. My bad.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7491861&topic_id=7417714

 

Enjoy.

 

I lie?

 

Still bitter 'cause i kicked your ass in the Holliday argument, and are still using the PA/AB mistake as your binky. . And no, Mitch Williams should use Gameday or a similar tool so he can know where the pitches actually fall.

[Dipre]

Try to keep things civil if you want to stay here. Just consider it a fair warning. I should know.

 

Quite simply...it does not work. From a scientific point of you, the error range is too great for it to be a significant statistic. Unlike you, if I look at something, and it is so blatantly wrong, I don't delve into the "logic" of why it's right. Maybe the formula is no good. Maybe the way the balls in play are mapped wrong. It is inconsequential. A metric that has three of the 2009 AL Gold Glove winners as being negative, and two of the 2009 NL Gold Glove winners as negative is a joke; a farce.

 

Anyone here care to debate if any of the following players are WORSE than the average Triple-A call-up?

 

Teixeira, Torii Hunter, Adam Jones, Orlando Hudson, Shane Victorino?

 

Well...did you do what I said? Did you watch the breakdown with Mitch Williams on MLB Network?

 

They showed a graph, with the strikezone superimposed over it, the nine zones, and each hit the strike zone. So..either Gameday is wrong, or MLB Network is wrong. It seems like we've been down this road before. I'm assuming you're not lying, which has been a problem for you in the past, but two things. I watched the game, and I agree that those pitches were strikes. My personal analysis agrees with MLB Network, and not Gameday in this case. Does that make me right or wrong? Neither. However, I will say this. If Teagarten, or whatever his name is, could have "stolen" one strike, it's a one run game. He had about 5 opportunities to do so. Look on the other side. I think CC struck out 6 in a row. Same umpire. A lot of called strike calls.

 

This is honestly beyond your level of comprehension. You are too stubborn to admit that you're wrong..and honestly, I don't care. This is for other people who may want to analyze things and see things differently than they have before. You are a lost cause.

 

Everything. Like every other player, as a player gets older, they "lose" a step. I've never been a full-time catcher, but reaction time has a lot to do with it, I believe. Throwing arm, framing pitches..these I believe deteriorate with age as well. His arm, his ability to frame pitches [from the small sample size I've seen with him] are below average. He's Posada-Lite, or if it offends your sensibilities, Posada is VMart-Lite.

 

 

What bothers a lot of people is the fear of being found out that they are stupid. They lack the ability to formulate an opinion for themselves, and unless they are spoon-fed information, they find it an affront to them. Because there is no true-defensive metric for a catcher [i would argue that there really isn't one for fielders either, but that's another discussion], and people are unable to do a Google search to quantify it, they get upset. Sadly, Dipre, you are in this boat. You take this personally, with insults and whatnot. I'm trying to point out something I know and see. You don't have to agree with it. If you're ignorant about something...that's your issue, not mine. Watch the games. You might learn something. Seriously.

 

Anyone here want to bet me that even with the addition of Lackey and his supposed sub 4.00 ERA, that the Red Sox team ERA will be higher this year than it was last year?

 

Last night, Cervelli got about five or six pitches, by my count, that were out of the strike zone. Teagarden [sp?] had about 10 borderline pitches go against him. That right there, if you ask me, was the ball game.

 

Gut feeling, projections I've read. Also as a Yankee fan, I feared this team with Manny and Papi. Then you got rid of Manny, and replaced him with Bay, and the fear dissipated a little. Then Ortiz got old/clean/etc., and you lost Bay. You improved your team defense, but you lost a lot of the high OBP players you used to have by bringing in Beltre and Cameron. This offense, in my opinion, is the third best offense in the AL East, behind New York and Tampa.

 

Learn to read. Here is the quote:

 

 

 

I was wrong. The grumblings have started in April. I miscalculated how sharp you guys can be. My mistake. Kudos to most of you.

 

However, as all can see..what people write, and what you read Dipre and interpret are often two very different things. How can anyone but you take the fact that I stated that the Red Sox team ERA will suffer greatly and conclude that I said he "may or may not suck"? Really?

 

Noise. That's all you do here Dipre. You just make noise, but with no substance. When you actually think, you can have some decent insight. However, when you're stubborn, you come across as an ignoramus, an elitist, and a fool.

 

Side note...the fearless predictions were there to have fun. Some were serious [burnett ERA going up, Vmart sucking behind the plate], some were funny [Nick Johnson getting injured scooping out Ice Cream] and some were blantantly hopeful homerism [Vazquez outpitching Lackey]. I'm not afraid of putting myself out there for both praise and ridicule..but mainly, it sparked three pages of debate and fun...which is my intent. Stop taking this s*** so seriously, especially when you're wrong. :thumbsup:

 

Baseless conjecture, fabricated nonsense, making things personal. Seriously Gom, give it a rest. No matter what Mitch Williams "said", it's obvious that your assesment is incorrect. Now go back to calling me a liar because i confused PA with AB during an argument in which i literally made you cry in front of your computer.

[jacksonianmarch]

http://politiclolz.com/files/2009/09/20090909-You-Lie.jpg

[Dipre]

^ Well done, sir. I nearly pissed my pants laughing at that.

[SoxSport]

As I said in another thread, I don't think VMart is responsible for all the SBs. There are lots of mediocre defensive catchers in Baseball--but the Red Sox are allowing SBs at an historical rate. That has to be policy--allowing runners to get too much of a jump. The pitchers are probably more at fault for not holding runners on--and that's the pitching coach.

[Dipre]

As I said in another thread' date=' I don't think VMart is responsible for all the SBs. There are lots of mediocre defensive catchers in Baseball--but the Red Sox are allowing SBs at an historical rate. [b']That has to be policy--allowing runners to get too much of a jump. [/b]The pitchers are probably more at fault for not holding runners on--and that's the pitching coach.

 

The Red Sox don't allow pitchers to use slide steps, and have a "Focus on the hitter, not the runner" policy. I read that a couple times during the off-season, i'll see if i can find it.

[a700hitter]

The Red Sox don't allow pitchers to use slide steps' date=' and have a "Focus on the hitter, not the runner" policy. I read that a couple times during the off-season, i'll see if i can find it.[/quote']So, that means that old ladies and catchers should be able to steal bases against us?

[TheMino007]

That is their policy and its f***ing stupid. Another reason why Francona has no idea what he is doing as a manager. I've seen pitchers not even look at the runner when he is on base, never mind throw over to keep them close. Varying how long you hold the ball before you deliver it also causes the base runner to get out of their rhythm, but I guess we can't even teach that.

[Dipre]

So' date=' that means that old ladies and catchers should be able to steal bases against us?[/quote']

 

Haven't they been stealing bases against us?

 

 

That is their policy and its f***ing stupid. Another reason why Francona has no idea what he is doing as a manager. I've seen pitchers not even look at the runner when he is on base' date=' never mind throw over to keep them close. Varying how long you hold the ball before you deliver it also causes the base runner to get out of their rhythm, but I guess we can't even teach that.[/quote']

 

I could understand that approach with Bucholz because of the difficulties he had settling down with men on base in the past, but otherwise, it's not a very smart approach at all.

[a700hitter]

Haven't they been stealing bases against us?

 

 

 

 

I could understand that approach with Bucholz because of the difficulties he had settling down with men on base in the past, but otherwise, it's not a very smart approach at all.

I understand that the pitchers do not hold runners on, but Varitek takes for ever to release the ball, and VMart's arm makes Piazza look like Johnny Bench.

[Gom]

It's interesting, this little fantasy world you live in where it's acceptable to ask someone a question while assuming the answer, as you have done here. No wonder you think you do so well in arguments, you've assigned your opponents responses in your mind that you credit yourself with defeating. Nevermind the reality of their responses. For instance, every pitch to Johnson was borderline, ie, the ump could have gone either way with them, but nothing Teagarden did impacted that.

 

 

No, it doesn't change that, but that doesn't mean what you want it to. Six of those 9 were in the lower end of the zone, where Timmons wasn't calling strikes, two were higher than any other called strike outside the strikezone, and one was higher than any called strike all night. There is no other comparable pitch to point to and call these the fault of the catcher.

 

Keep trying.

 

He could have gone either way..but he didn't. Yet he didn't do that once for the pitcher with the better catcher. Why is that? Again, please reference the graph you so kindly supplied for me.

 

Nothing Teagarden did impacted it? How do you know? You're looking at blips on a graph. How do you know what he did or didn't do. You have absolutely no clue. Yet you strut around like you actually know something. Funny...oh, and by the way...it's five pitches that were below the strike zone. Learn to count.

Baseless conjecture' date=' fabricated nonsense, making things personal. Seriously Gom, give it a rest. No matter what Mitch Williams "said", it's obvious that your assesment is incorrect. Now go back to calling me a liar because i confused PA with AB during an argument in which i literally made you cry in front of your computer.[/quote']

This is a broken record. No matter who says things, whether it is scouts, former baseball players, baseball analysts...nothing trumps Dipre's "opinion" with a Gameday account.

 

You hear that? NOTHING!!!! Dipre with a Gameday account is a God. All pay heed and bow to Dipre, God of Baseball!!!!!

 

Like you said, give it a rest.

 

Nice try guys. Seriously. Try again. I actually hope you make a point that sticks next time.

[Dipre]

This is a broken record. No matter who says things, whether it is scouts, former baseball players, baseball analysts...nothing trumps Dipre's "opinion" with a Gameday account.

 

You hear that? NOTHING!!!! Dipre with a Gameday account is a God. All pay heed and bow to Dipre, God of Baseball!!!!!

 

Like you said, give it a rest.

 

Nice try guys. Seriously. Try again. I actually hope you make a point that sticks next time.

 

Are you a "sheep" of the baseball analysts?

 

Seriously, take the time to come up with your own opinion.

 

As for the, "nothing beats Dipre with a Gameday account" unfortunately, a system that allows me to accurately differentiate a ball from a strike trumps you and your analysts every time.

 

Your "framing pitches" argument is old. Your initial argument is based off a minimal sample size and you're trying to use a single ballgame with incorrect evidence to prove a "point" that doesn't exist in the first place.

 

Interesting approach.

 

Oh, and stop hurting over the Holliday argument. HE CAN'T HIT THE INSIDE FASTBALLLL!111!!111

[Gom]

Are you a "sheep" of the baseball analysts?

 

Seriously, take the time to come up with your own opinion.

 

As for the, "nothing beats Dipre with a Gameday account" unfortunately, a system that allows me to accurately differentiate a ball from a strike trumps you and your analysts every time.

 

Your "framing pitches" argument is old. Your initial argument is based off a minimal sample size and you're trying to use a single ballgame with incorrect evidence to prove a "point" that doesn't exist in the first place.

 

Interesting approach.

 

Oh, and stop hurting over the Holliday argument. HE CAN'T HIT THE INSIDE FASTBALLLL!111!!111

Funnies post of the year. My stomach hurts from laughing.

 

1. Come up with my own opinion? Oh my goodness, all you do is spout what others write.

 

2. A system that actually differentiates? There are multiple systems. Gameday, Brooks, MLB ...you pick one and run with it. Trumps me..analysts...advance scouts...former baseball players...baseball columnists...all of us!!! People who get paid to do this, some who make over six figures...nothing beats Dipre with a Game Day account. I'm literally crying with laughter.

 

3. We've heard from you the small sample size argument. Would you say half a season is fair enough? The reason I ask is this: With Lackey, and Buchholz pitching a full season, and no Dice K [until now] wouldn't you think the Red Sox team ERA to go down? If we revisit this argument on July 1st and VMart is still the primary catcher, and the Red Sox team ERA is higher....would you admit you're an idiot?

 

4. Holliday still can't hit the inside fastball. Look it up.

[yankees228]

I've always thought that Gameday and Brooks Baseball (I believe they're the same) are supposed to extremely accurate. However, can anyone confirm this with something more than just your word?

[Dipre]

Funnies post of the year. My stomach hurts from laughing.

 

1. Come up with my own opinion? Oh my goodness, all you do is spout what others write.

 

It shouldn't, sheep.

 

2. A system that actually differentiates? There are multiple systems. Gameday, Brooks, MLB ...you pick one and run with it. Trumps me..analysts...advance scouts...former baseball players...baseball columnists...all of us!!! People who get paid to do this, some who make over six figures...nothing beats Dipre with a Game Day account. I'm literally crying with laughter.

 

Refusing to attack the point head on is an immature tactic. Which is more accurate, Broadcaster's eyes or the Gameday system? Pretty simple answer IMO.

 

3. We've heard from you the small sample size argument. Would you say half a season is fair enough? The reason I ask is this: With Lackey, and Buchholz pitching a full season, and no Dice K [until now] wouldn't you think the Red Sox team ERA to go down? If we revisit this argument on July 1st and VMart is still the primary catcher, and the Red Sox team ERA is higher....would you admit you're an idiot?

 

Why would i "admit i'm an idiot"? You're not twelve, don't act like it. I've said multiple times that the jury's out on Martinez, but we simply don't have enough of a sample size to come up with a solid conclusion. There's a chance you could be right, even if it is just conjecture, so you would like to take that miniature percentage and turn it into a possibility of "victory". Interesting approach. Your opinion on Martinez is nothing but baseless conjecture, you know this, so why not put it to rest?

 

4. Holliday still can't hit the inside fastball. Look it up.

 

Why don't you look it up? As far as i'm concerned, i was right, you were wrong. It's up to you to prove otherwise.

[Gom]

Refusing to attack the point head on is an immature tactic. Which is more accurate, Broadcaster's eyes or the Gameday system? Pretty simple answer IMO.

Except that if you watched the video link, you'll see that they put up the strike zone graphic. Which is why ORS stopped debating this point. Learn.

Why would i "admit i'm an idiot"? You're not twelve, don't act like it. I've said multiple times that the jury's out on Martinez, but we simply don't have enough of a sample size to come up with a solid conclusion. There's a chance you could be right, even if it is just conjecture, so you would like to take that miniature percentage and turn it into a possibility of "victory". Interesting approach. Your opinion on Martinez is nothing but baseless conjecture, you know this, so why not put it to rest?

The jury is out on Martinez? Fine, fine...except that I quoted this would happen before the season started. Let me know when the jury is in. It really doesn't matter how long you take. I have more experience in this. I won't knock your baseball analysis on this point I just made, what I mean by experience is that I've been watching a terrible catcher for years and I have more experience seeing how he affects a pitcher's performance. Trust me, there wasn't a Red Sox fan alive who was happier than I was when you signed VMart to be your everyday catcher.

 

I get it. When you're right, it's honest-to-goodness great baseball analysis. When your debater is right, it's baseless conjecture.

 

It must really suck to be on the receiving end of so much baseless conjecture.

4. Holliday still can't hit the inside fastball. Look it up.

Why don't you look it up? As far as i'm concerned, i was right, you were wrong. It's up to you to prove otherwise.

Nah. I didn't look it up. However, I'd be willing to bet I'm right.

 

We all know in your little mind you think you're right. That's nothing new. Also, I don't have access to Gameday. So get to work...and just like ORS, prove my point for me. If I don't see a graph, I'll assume I'm right. You have access. Prove me wrong.

[Dipre]

Except that if you watched the video link' date=' you'll see that they put up the strike zone graphic. Which is why ORS stopped debating this point. Learn. [/quote']

 

Did you know?

 

MLB.com's Gameday's margin of error while tracking the ball as it crosses home plate is of 1" max?

 

Do you not get the point?

 

The jury is out on Martinez? Fine, fine...except that I quoted this would happen before the season started. Let me know when the jury is in.

 

April 18th.

 

I get it. When you're right, it's honest-to-goodness great baseball analysis. When your debater is right, it's baseless conjecture.

 

It must really suck to be on the receiving end of so much baseless conjecture.

 

Yup, this has a lot to do with the debate. When proven wrong, resort to being an annoying douche.

 

Nah. I didn't look it up. However, I'd be willing to bet I'm right.

 

]We all know in your little mind you think you're right. That's nothing new. Also, I don't have access to Gameday. So get to work...and just like ORS, prove my point for me. If I don't see a graph, I'll assume I'm right. You have access. Prove me wrong.

 

I posted both instances of the AB's way back in my initial reply. Did you forget to look at them, or didn't you actually read the post?

[yankees228]

Dipre, can you provide a link about Gameday's margin of error?

[riverside sluggers]

About V-Mart's Red Sox ERA last year... the bulk of his starts were catching Penny, Smoltz (even with Tek, they sucked), and Paul Byrd. Jon Lester and Josh Beckett stuck with Tek til the end of the year. And Buch's strong finish at the end of the season, V-Mart was catching him the whole time... oh and he's caught 2 former Cy Young Award winners

[Dipre]

Dipre' date=' can you provide a link about Gameday's margin of error?[/quote']

 

I found a Q and A with Cory Schwartz, MLB.com's director of stats.

 

#25 Cory Schwartz (see all posts) 2007/05/11 (Fri) @ 11:26

 

Q#9

 

As mentioned above, the system has been thoroughly tested and consistently measured to track the ball within 1” as it approaches home plate.

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/everything_you_ever_wanted_to_know_about_gameday/

 

Post #25.

 

There's also a lot of information about Gameday's accuracy in tracking release points and F/X pitch tracking. It's an interesting read.

[yankees228]

Excellent, thank you. Fact is, as I've thought all along, I'll trust Gameday (and Brooks, which I believe takes from Gameday) over any super-imposed strike zone on MLB Network or anything like it.

[Dipre]

Excellent' date=' thank you. Fact is, as I've thought all along, I'll trust Gameday (and Brooks, which I believe takes from Gameday) over any super-imposed strike zone on MLB Network or anything like it.[/quote']

 

Not Gom. I'll take my 1" margin of error over TV analysis any day of the week.

[yankees228]

Not Gom. I'll take my 1" margin of error over TV analysis any day of the week.

 

But wait! Cory Schwartz is lying. Dipre, you're such a sheep for believing him.

[Dipre]

But wait! Cory Schwartz is lying. Dipre' date=' you're such a sheep for believing him.[/quote']

 

I'm only repeating what he said,man. You know, relaying the message? No original thought whatsoever.

[ORS]

Which is why ORS stopped debating this point. Learn.

You are making s*** up and assigning to someone as bogus support for your argument again. It's really pathetic that you do this, and it's so old with that it's starting to get stale. Stand on your own.

 

I didn't carry on the discussion about the accuracy of the actual strikezone as measured by the graphic on MLB Network vs. Gameday because I was making another point.

 

Can you, for once, make an argument without claiming bogus support from others on the board?

[Dipre]

You are making s*** up and assigning to someone as bogus support for your argument again. It's really pathetic that you do this, and it's so old with that it's starting to get stale. Stand on your own.

 

I didn't carry on the discussion about the accuracy of the actual strikezone as measured by the graphic on MLB Network vs. Gameday because I was making another point.

 

Can you, for once, make an argument without claiming bogus support from others on the board?

 

But wait, isn't he supposed to be "honest"?

 

The way i see it, that is blatant lying.

[ORS]

He could have gone either way..but he didn't. Yet he didn't do that once for the pitcher with the better catcher. Why is that? Again, please reference the graph you so kindly supplied for me.

 

Nothing Teagarden did impacted it? How do you know? You're looking at blips on a graph. How do you know what he did or didn't do. You have absolutely no clue. Yet you strut around like you actually know something. Funny...oh, and by the way...it's five pitches that were below the strike zone. Learn to count.

I know because I watched the video, per your request.

 

Five, six, four, who gives a s***? You are missing the forrest because of your focus on a small tree. I counted from memory, so it was five, big deal. The point remains, Timmons' zone, like most modern umps, is short but wide relative to the actual strikezone. He cuts some off the top and the bottom and adds it to the sides of the plate. Where Wilson lost strikes was in these cutoff zones. I made this clear the first time. You have not responded to it, and instead focussed on ******** like how many pitches I counted from memory. Here's another opportunity to join the meaningful discussion or carry on with the 3rd grade s***.

[Gom]

I know because I watched the video, per your request.

 

Five, six, four, who gives a s***? You are missing the forrest because of your focus on a small tree. I counted from memory, so it was five, big deal. The point remains, Timmons' zone, like most modern umps, is short but wide relative to the actual strikezone. He cuts some off the top and the bottom and adds it to the sides of the plate. Where Wilson lost strikes was in these cutoff zones. I made this clear the first time. You have not responded to it, and instead focussed on ******** like how many pitches I counted from memory. Here's another opportunity to join the meaningful discussion or carry on with the 3rd grade s***.

 

Then how come he didn't miss the pitches from CC? You know what would be interesting. Let's figure out when Timmons is umpiring behind the plate, and see how he does in his next outing.

 

That would be interesting, don't you think?