Options at first base

[Dojji]

And between one blink and the other, Mike Lowell is apparently no longer with us.

 

A lot of people seem to take that to mean that we have an argeement in principle for a third baseman. Since the only 3B of any quality is Adrian Beltre, they naturally zero in on that name.

 

Personally I think they're kinda jumping to conclusions. With Youkilis' ability to play third, the Sox could just as easily have plans to sign, or trade, for a first baseman instead.

 

For example, Adam LaRoche, who's a personal favorite of mine. He isn't a superstar but is pretty much your prototypical bricks-and-morter first sacker. 25 HR's, a .270 AVG and a decent OBP year in, year out. Nothing fancy, nothing to be ashamed of. He's not the sexy pick, but he'd replace the offense lost from dealing Mike Lowell, plus a little bit, and would field his position adequately, representing incremental upgrades in both run creation and run prevention. That, and he doesn't cost a pick which helps that potential move keep its low-risk flavor.

 

And then there's longer shots -- Russel Branyan, Aubrey Huff, that type. High risk, high reward. Branyan is intriguing because he's really come on over the last couple seasons. He wouldn't be the first player to suddenly get it in his mid 30's

 

The guy we traded Lowell for has to be considered an option too. Max Ramirez is a legitimately talented hitter and has the potential to be a real menace with the stick if things fall right for him.

 

And of course, the 600 pound gorilla in the room -- the the guy forum culture immediately thinks of when first base is open -- Adrian Gonzalez. How we could come away with him without putting Fenway in hock I'm not sure, but that's a guy who would give our lineup a radical makeover some feel it needs. That said, SD has little reason to trade him just now. You don't see legitimate 40-50 HR power very often, even at 1B, and he's not expensive yet -- I'd guess he'll be a Padre until he GETS expensive.

 

Or of course, it could be something completely off the wall, too, that catches us by surprise. Are there any 1B free agents coming out of Japan?

[SCM33]

And between one blink and the other, Mike Lowell is apparently no longer with us.

 

A lot of people seem to take that to mean that we have an argeement in principle for a third baseman. Since the only 3B of any quality is Adrian Beltre, they naturally zero in on that name.

 

Personally I think they're kinda jumping to conclusions. With Youkilis' ability to play third, the Sox could just as easily have plans to sign, or trade, for a first baseman instead.

 

For example, Adam LaRoche, who's a personal favorite of mine. He isn't a superstar but is pretty much your prototypical bricks-and-morter first sacker. 25 HR's, a .270 AVG and a decent OBP year in, year out. Nothing fancy, nothing to be ashamed of. He's not the sexy pick, but he'd replace the offense lost from dealing Mike Lowell, plus a little bit, and would field his position adequately, representing incremental upgrades in both run creation and run prevention. That, and he doesn't cost a pick which helps that potential move keep its low-risk flavor.

 

And then there's longer shots -- Russel Branyan, Aubrey Huff, that type. High risk, high reward. Branyan is intriguing because he's really come on over the last couple seasons. He wouldn't be the first player to suddenly get it in his mid 30's

 

The guy we traded Lowell for has to be considered an option too. Max Ramirez is a legitimately talented hitter and has the potential to be a real menace with the stick if things fall right for him.

 

And of course, the 600 pound gorilla in the room -- the the guy forum culture immediately thinks of when first base is open -- Adrian Gonzalez. How we could come away with him without putting Fenway in hock I'm not sure, but that's a guy who would give our lineup a radical makeover some feel it needs. That said, SD has little reason to trade him just now. You don't see legitimate 40-50 HR power very often, even at 1B, and he's not expensive yet -- I'd guess he'll be a Padre until he GETS expensive.

 

Or of course, it could be something completely off the wall, too, that catches us by surprise. Are there any 1B free agents coming out of Japan?

 

Branyan, id say no at this point. Ive always liked him, but dont think he is good enough to play here.

 

Huff, no....too inconsistent.

 

I too, like Laroche.

 

I really dont want Beltre to play 3B. I think we take a step back with him.

 

Im hoping this opens doors to either bringing in Gonzalez, or leads to a trade for Halladay. If they sign a big bat for LF, acquire Halladay...then yes, I will be ok with Beltre at 3B.

[Dojji]

I'm not sure we take a step back with Beltre, I'm just not convinced we take any steps forward. And there's a quite a bit of volatility there.

 

Beltre is streaky, inconsistent, and a guy that's difficult to make up your mind on. Plays great one day awful the next. If he's on some other team you remember the good times, and if he's a FA you want him on that basis, but if he came here the fans would eat him alive during the slumps.

[GWSoxFan]

I'm not sure we take a step back with Beltre, I'm just not convinced we take any steps forward. And there's a quite a bit of volatility there.

 

Beltre is streaky, inconsistent, and a guy that's difficult to make up your mind on. Plays great one day awful the next. If he's on some other team you remember the good times, and if he's a FA you want him on that basis, but if he came here the fans would eat him alive during the slumps.

 

You know. The more that I think about it, the more I think you may have a pretty good point here. I thought Beltre's fielding percentage was higher than it is. Youk actually has a better fielding percentage than Beltre as a 3b (I haven't looked at any more of their fielding stats) and LaRoche as we all know, is a solid defensive player.

 

Here's my question though. If LaRoche is the starting 1b, then we end up with 5 lefties in the lineup and two would have to hit back to back, making the lineup somewhat vulnerable to lefty relievers. Are you worried about that Dojji?

 

EDIT: LaRoche also provides a benefit in that we most likely won't have to pay him anything close to what Beltre will command.

[GWSoxFan]

Another option that I hadn't thought of but may be better than signing Beltre is trading for Jorge Cantu. I thought I heard that the Marlins were just asking for a middle of the rotation starter for him. I wonder if a package centered around Junichi Tazawa would work for them.

[example1]

For example' date=' Adam LaRoche, who's a personal favorite of mine. He isn't a superstar but is pretty much your prototypical bricks-and-morter first sacker. 25 HR's, a .270 AVG and a decent OBP year in, year out. Nothing fancy, nothing to be ashamed of. He's not the sexy pick, but he'd replace the offense lost from dealing Mike Lowell, plus a little bit, and would field his position adequately, representing incremental upgrades in both run creation and run prevention. [/quote']

 

They traded LaRoche for Kotchman. I don't think they see LaRoche as their answer.

 

That, and he doesn't cost a pick which helps that potential move keep its low-risk flavor.

 

I'm pretty sure that Beltre doesn't cost a pick. Not sure you weren't talking about him, but just to clarify.

 

 

And of course, the 600 pound gorilla in the room -- the the guy forum culture immediately thinks of when first base is open -- Adrian Gonzalez. How we could come away with him without putting Fenway in hock I'm not sure, but that's a guy who would give our lineup a radical makeover some feel it needs. That said, SD has little reason to trade him just now. You don't see legitimate 40-50 HR power very often, even at 1B, and he's not expensive yet -- I'd guess he'll be a Padre until he GETS expensive.

 

I suspect Adrian Gonzalez won't be the answer, but it really depends on Max Ramirez's value to other teams.

 

Or of course, it could be something completely off the wall, too, that catches us by surprise. Are there any 1B free agents coming out of Japan?

 

I don't think so. I think you know most of the options and, although Adrian Beltre has both been discussed and seems to fit the mold, I think you're in denial that he could be a good option. He makes a lot of sense, especially if he's signed to a reasonable deal. It could be another answer, but if I were you I would prepare to be disappointed by a Beltre signing. I don't love it, but I can see how it would contribute to this team and will like it a lot more if it comes with some aggressive moves to improve the rotation.

[example1]

...Breaking this quote from Dojji's off...

 

The guy we traded Lowell for has to be considered an option too. Max Ramirez is a legitimately talented hitter and has the potential to be a real menace with the stick if things fall right for him.

 

I think this is a really interesting option. Between Victor Martinez and Max Ramirez they have two C/1B who can produce offensively. This is a really impressive type of versatility.

 

As much as part of me wants Theo to swing Ramirez for a "shiny new toy" like Halladay, I also wouldn't be shocked if Ramirez is a guy he wants to add to the core of this team moving forward.

 

He's cost controlled and versatile enough to contribute at two key positions. If the Sox had drafted and developed a 25 year old catcher/1B who hit like Ramirez does I would expect Theo to defend him very strongly like he does all the rest of his best prospects.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with this acquisition.

[BSN07]

I really don't get the hate going around for Beltre. He has a better glove at this point then Lowell. He's 5 years younger. His bat is comparable(playing at Fenway it should be). He is a solid player that will probably come cheaper then what Lowell did.

 

The chronic ass pain that's going around whenever the Sox are in on someone who isn't a "superstar" is getting really old. Some Red Sox fans are getting that stupid Yankee entitlement syndrome where they think they need a all star at every position to be competitive. Beltre would be a solid addition on all fronts. Especially if they can't upgrade the offense anymore. Defense and run prevention will become even more important.

 

The way some of you think and want things done leads me to believe your cheering for the wrong team.

[Dojji]

The problem I have with Beltre can be summed up by 3 letters.

 

OBP.

 

Whatever else good he does, Adrian Beltre makes more outs than most of the other options we can add to our corner infield. I'm not convinced that the Fenway effert gets him all the way from .310-.320 to the .350 OBP he needs to have to be fully productive in this lineup.

 

I'd call OBP at least a worthy tiebreaker between a couple fairly equivalent courses of action, wouldn't you?

[ORS]

Mike "Steed" Lowell didn't perform to .350 OBP in 3 of the 4 years he played in Boston. In fact, his high in those 3 years was a .339. Why does Beltre, the better defender, who has more power, need to be better than Lowell in OBP to be considered a fit?

[riverside sluggers]

5 years younger, and more likely to stay healthy for a full season

[Dojji]

Mike "Steed" Lowell didn't perform to .350 OBP in 3 of the 4 years he played in Boston. In fact' date=' his high in those 3 years was a .339. Why does Beltre, the better defender, who has more power, need to be better than Lowell in OBP to be considered a fit?[/quote']

 

 

Because you just admitted that Lowell's level wasn't adequate either. Beltre is going to be worse.

 

5 years younger, and more likely to stay healthy for a full season

 

He's got a lot of miles on him though. About as many as Lowell, really. Age matters, but this will be Beltre's 12th big league season. That's a lot of wear'n'tear.

 

Besides, why are we comparing Beltre to Lowell? Lowell's gone. It's time to look for his replacement. We should be comparing Beltre to LaRoche or someone.

[ORS]

Because you just admitted that Lowell's level wasn't adequate either. Beltre is going to be worse.

Show me where I admitted to something? You were fine with Lowell when there were talks of replacing him with Teixeira, you were fine with Lowell now in talks of replacing him with Beltre. I can only reasonably assume that Lowell is adequate offensively in your mind, ie he's a fit, so my question remains. If Beltre is better in the field and hits for more power, why does his OBP have to be higher than Lowell's to be a fit?

 

Quick hint, there's really only one honest answer to this question, which is that it doesn't need to be better than Lowell to be considered adequate. I'm pushing here because it's clear you are arbitrarily throwing numbers out there, and for some reason when called out for it, you are arbitrarily accusing me of setting a standard I never set. Take your medicine and move on, don't dig deeper.

 

Besides, why are we comparing Beltre to Lowell? Lowell's gone. It's time to look for his replacement. We should be comparing Beltre to LaRoche or someone.

While I agree that a more important discussion is the merits of the options at 1B/3B now that Lowell is likely gone, your question is laughable. You know exactly why people are comparing Lowell to Beltre. You have declared Lowell adequate throughout all discussions pertaining to the CIF positions. You are now declaring Adrian Beltre inadequate. The statistical analysis of your position reveals an inconsistency in your definition of "adequate", which renders your judgment of Adrian Beltre to be arbitrary.

[BSN07]

Show me where I admitted to something? You were fine with Lowell when there were talks of replacing him with Teixeira, you were fine with Lowell now in talks of replacing him with Beltre. I can only reasonably assume that Lowell is adequate offensively in your mind, ie he's a fit, so my question remains. If Beltre is better in the field and hits for more power, why does his OBP have to be higher than Lowell's to be a fit?

 

Quick hint, there's really only one honest answer to this question, which is that it doesn't need to be better than Lowell to be considered adequate. I'm pushing here because it's clear you are arbitrarily throwing numbers out there, and for some reason when called out for it, you are arbitrarily accusing me of setting a standard I never set. Take your medicine and move on, don't dig deeper.

 

 

While I agree that a more important discussion is the merits of the options at 1B/3B now that Lowell is likely gone, your question is laughable. You know exactly why people are comparing Lowell to Beltre. You have declared Lowell adequate throughout all discussions pertaining to the CIF positions. You are now declaring Adrian Beltre inadequate. The statistical analysis of your position reveals an inconsistency in your definition of "adequate", which renders your judgment of Adrian Beltre to be arbitrary.

 

I couldn't agree more ORS.

 

I think Dojji is some how related to Lowell. It would explain a lot

 

Dojji you have to learn these flimzy arguments and/or opinions aren't going to float here. It took me awhile to catch on, but after constant brow beatings from ORS, Kilo, Dipre I smartened up for the most part

 

Consistency is key

[Paradisecity]

I say just take their drawers off and skip right to third. But that's just me.

 

Past the thread title and on to the topic, I was considering calling Dojji out on his pro-Lowell, anti-everyone else approach the last couple offseasons as well. It is puzzling.

[Dojji]

Show me where I admitted to something? You were fine with Lowell when there were talks of replacing him with Teixeira' date=' you were fine with Lowell now in talks of replacing him with Beltre. I can only reasonably assume that Lowell is adequate offensively in your mind, ie he's a fit, so my question remains. If Beltre is better in the field and hits for more power, why does his OBP have to be higher than Lowell's to be a fit? [/quote']

 

It should at least not be lower than Lowell's when you yourself are claiming that Lowell's OBP was a problem. If you don't see the flaw in your logic, I guess there's not much I can do about that- -- but suffice it to say, I can.

 

If we hadn't traded Lowell, I wouldn't have seen the need to go to the effort to replace him when with Beltre when we'd only have Lowell for 1 year, we had a good depth plan for if he was hurt or ineffective, there are a number of above average 1B on the market this year and next, and we're in no danger of an outright vacuum at 3B as long as Youks stays healthy.

 

And if we have to replace Lowell, Beltre wouldn't be my choice because I've bought into OBP as a useful stat and I want to bring in players that will increase that number on average, not decrease it. If power is a constant and I'm given the choice of a .310 OBP at third and Youks at first, or Youks at third and a .350 OBP at first, I think the choice should be fairly clear

 

Also, everyone's climbing aboard the Beltre bandwagon without, it seems to me, seriously examining alternatives. That always is going to get me out there stumping for Plan B.

Quick hint, there's really only one honest answer to this question, which is that it doesn't need to be better than Lowell to be considered adequate.

 

How convenient for you. Because Beltre's OBP is neither higher than Lowell's, nor adequate.

 

I'm pushing here because it's clear you are arbitrarily throwing numbers out there, and for some reason when called out for it, you are arbitrarily accusing me of setting a standard I never set. Take your medicine and move on, don't dig deeper.

 

Actually, the one who brought up Lowell's OBP as a standard was.... not me. You were the one who was pointing out that Lowell's OBP is low. Fine, if that's a problem why go for, like, the one guy who actually has it worse? And if that's not a problem, why are your lips moving?

 

 

While I agree that a more important discussion is the merits of the options at 1B/3B now that Lowell is likely gone, your question is laughable. You know exactly why people are comparing Lowell to Beltre.

 

Actually no I don't, so how's about you spell it out. Since Lowell isn't going to be our 3B no matter what, the only question that's even relevant is how much we can improve on his production, and that's not the right question if what you're looking for is the BEST option. You might as well compare prospective FA's to Youkilis or Ortiz.

 

You have declared Lowell adequate throughout all discussions pertaining to the CIF positions. You are now declaring Adrian Beltre inadequate. The statistical analysis of your position reveals an inconsistency in your definition of "adequate", which renders your judgment of Adrian Beltre to be arbitrary.

 

Lowell WAS adequate. but at this point we've officially moved on. Now we're officially out there spending money looking for a replacement, I'm not so willing to settle with "adequate!" When it's time to spend money on a guy, get the best guy you can. That isn't Beltre IMHO.

[Paradisecity]

 

 

 

Lowell WAS adequate. but that doesn't mean that when it comes to talking about going to the free agency market, and spending money looking for a replacement, I'm willing to settle with "adequate!" When it's time to spend money on a guy, get the best guy you can. That isn't Beltre IMHO.

 

If this were the attitude, wouldn't you have been for the Teixeira signing?

[Dojji]

No, because I didn't think that that was the time or place to spend a lot of money -- not when we already had a solid incumbent who was getting the job done (remember, this was BEFORE his huge defensive collapse, which is largely unique to this past year) and a couple good prospects for long-term replacement or trade purposes. Although I did say at the time that if we got Teixeira I wouldn't exactly weep bitter tears over it.

 

Now my argument got blown out of the water by huge collapses by both Anderson and Lowell, but that doesn't mean it was automatically invalid when I made it. things could just have easily gone the other way. And IIRC, we actually did outbid the Yankees for Teixeira anyway, so it's not like there's anything we could have done.

[BSN07]

Lowell has put up better OBP numbers while playing his games at Fenway surrounded by good hitters. Beltre has played his whole career in pitchers parks surrounded by retreads. Call me crazy but I think it's a safe bet to see a climb in Beltre's numbers. And if that is the case, they will most likely be on par or possibly better then Lowell's.

 

Next...

[Dojji]

There's no guarantee of that you know. If we got him I'd be hoping for it, but I think the whole park factor argument gets overblown sometimes. I mean, Manny Ramirez moved from Fenway to Beltre's original home turf and his numbers stayed pretty much the same, if it was that big a deal, wouldn't you have expected them to go down?

 

Frankly I think people are putting way too much faith into the idea that a 31 year old player will improve his plate discipline. Why not just get a guy with good plate discipline instead?

[BSN07]

There's no guarantee of that you know. If we got him I'd be hoping for it, but I think the whole park factor argument gets overblown sometimes. I mean, Manny Ramirez moved from Fenway to Beltre's original home turf and his numbers stayed pretty much the same, if it was that big a deal, wouldn't you have expected them to go down?

 

Frankly I think people are putting way too much faith into the idea that a 31 year old player will improve his plate discipline. Why not just get a guy with good plate discipline instead?

 

Your comparing Manny Ramirez to Beltre?

 

Like I said, Next...

 

The sox need RH power, they also need defense at 3B. Do I really need to add 2 and 2 for you?

 

Fine it equals Beltre.

[Paradisecity]

we actually did outbid the Yankees for Teixeira anyway' date=' so it's not like there's anything we could have done.[/quote']

 

First, I dont want to make this about getting Teixeira, (the who-said-what battle that happens on this board over and over) I want to make it about your opposition to getting him and the reasoning you used, which you admit went horribly wrong with Lars Anderson and Mike Lowell. Meanwhile you just said we should go after the best player possible at a position when we need them. The best player possible at a position always costs an obscene amount of money for too many years (Teixeira being a great example). So how are we supposed to get this player that you think we should get when your reasoning one year ago was that these situations should be avoided at all costs?

 

(remember' date=' this was BEFORE his huge defensive collapse, which is largely unique to this past year)[/quote']

 

This is after a hip injury, where almost everyone but you noted that he would not be the same player and you stated that he would be back to himself. We also noted that it was likely Papi wouldnt be the same player, which prompted an even greater need to grab an elite corner player while they were out there on the FA market (and now, shockingly, there are none and you are unhappy with the FA option) Do I need to dig this up? The writing was on the wall for 2009 Mike Lowell, and anybody that didn't see it coming was wearing rose colored glasses. Personally, I think he exceeded realistic expectations.

 

What I am saying here, is that the solutions you have provided for this team at the corners and their outcomes have s*** the bed, as many here predicted. I think that your Mike Lowell analysis might be best off to just take a nap for a while until this situation plays out, with all due respect of course

[Dojji]

Your comparing Manny Ramirez to Beltre?

 

Like I said, Next...

 

Nice. Way to totally duck the argument rather than actually address the fact that people are badly overinflating what park factors will mean in the event of a Beltre acquisition.

 

The sox need RH power, they also need defense at 3B. Do I really need to add 2 and 2 for you?

 

Fine it equals Beltre.

 

Of course, unless it's Miguel Cabrera and Matt Holliday, which is probably a superior solution. Heck, it's what you've said you want in a couple other places.

[ORS]

It should at least not be lower than Lowell's when you yourself are claiming that Lowell's OBP was a problem. If you don't see the flaw in your logic, I guess there's not much I can do about that- -- but suffice it to say, I can.

 

If we hadn't traded Lowell, I wouldn't have seen the need to go to the effort to replace him when with Beltre when we'd only have Lowell for 1 year, we had a good depth plan for if he was hurt or ineffective, there are a number of above average 1B on the market this year and next, and we're in no danger of an outright vacuum at 3B as long as Youks stays healthy.

 

And if we have to replace Lowell, Beltre wouldn't be my choice because I've bought into OBP as a useful stat and I want to bring in players that will increase that number on average, not decrease it. If power is a constant and I'm given the choice of a .310 OBP at third and Youks at first, or Youks at third and a .350 OBP at first, I think the choice should be fairly clear

 

Also, everyone's climbing aboard the Beltre bandwagon without, it seems to me, seriously examining alternatives. That always is going to get me out there stumping for Plan B.

 

 

How convenient for you. Because Beltre's OBP is neither higher than Lowell's, nor adequate.

 

 

 

Actually, the one who brought up Lowell's OBP as a standard was.... not me. You were the one who was pointing out that Lowell's OBP is low. Fine, if that's a problem why go for, like, the one guy who actually has it worse? And if that's not a problem, why are your lips moving?

 

 

 

 

Actually no I don't, so how's about you spell it out. Since Lowell isn't going to be our 3B no matter what, the only question that's even relevant is how much we can improve on his production, and that's not the right question if what you're looking for is the BEST option. You might as well compare prospective FA's to Youkilis or Ortiz.

 

 

 

Lowell WAS adequate. but at this point we've officially moved on. Now we're officially out there spending money looking for a replacement, I'm not so willing to settle with "adequate!" When it's time to spend money on a guy, get the best guy you can. That isn't Beltre IMHO.

To the parts in bold: No, a thousand times no.

 

I only applied the standard you set with this post.

 

Whatever else good he does, Adrian Beltre makes more outs than most of the other options we can add to our corner infield. I'm not convinced that the Fenway effert gets him all the way from .310-.320 to the .350 OBP he needs to have to be fully productive in this lineup.

 

I did not set the bar, you did. I only pointed out how your Steed, the one you found adequate, fell short of your arbitrary standard.

 

My logic is fine. Your ability to remember what you posted seems to be the issue.

[Dojji]

First' date=' I dont want to make this about getting Teixeira, (the who-said-what battle that happens on this board over and over) I want to make it about your opposition to getting him and the reasoning you used, which you admit went horribly wrong with Lars Anderson and Mike Lowell. Meanwhile you just said we should go after the best player possible at a position when we need them. The best player possible at a position always costs an obscene amount of money for too many years (Teixeira being a great example). So how are we supposed to get this player that you think we should get when your reasoning one year ago was that these situations should be avoided at all costs?[/quote']

 

OK, first of all, you're mischaracterizing my position.

 

My whole point last year was as follows:

 

Successful franchises tend not to spend large amounts of time, effort, money and talent to replace an above average player with an above average player.

 

What changed? Well, it's so obvious I shouldn't have to spell it out -- Mike Lowell declined, and was no longer an above average player. Sometimes you DO spend large amounts of time, effort and money to replace an average player with an above average one.

This is after a hip injury, where almost everyone but you noted that he would not be the same player and you stated that he would be back to himself.

 

Bearing in mind that what happened this season was the result of complications after the surgery, and those complications were hardly guaranteed to happen. Lowell was gimping around on that hip half the season last year and still put up above average numbers on both sides of the ball, and he didn't exactly suck this year either if I recall correctly -- He managed .800 OPS and wasn't a train wreck defensively (below average? Sure. Disastrously so? Not really). Which is still at least somewhat above average, although not as much as when he was still a gold glover as late as midseason last year.

 

We also noted that it was likely Papi wouldnt be the same player, which prompted an even greater need to grab an elite corner player while they were out there on the FA market (and now, shockingly, there are none and you are unhappy with the FA option)

 

THE Free Agent option? As in the one? Do I really need to repeat yet again the fairly salient and OBVIOUS point that THERE IS MORE THAN ONE ADEQUATE FREE AGENT OPTION OUT THERE? And all you have to do to find them is START LOOKING AT 1B AS WELL AS 3B??? Which is what this thread was created to point out?

 

Also, there might not be great FA bats out there this season, but there are trade options, Miguel Cabrera being perhaps the most obvious match.

 

Do I need to dig this up? The writing was on the wall for 2009 Mike Lowell, and anybody that didn't see it coming was wearing rose colored glasses. Personally, I think he exceeded realistic expectations.

 

What I am saying here, is that the solutions you have provided for this team at the corners and their outcomes have s*** the bed, as many here predicted. I think that your Mike Lowell analysis might be best off to just take a nap for a while until this situation plays out, with all due respect of course

 

Of course you do. And you and all your due respect can take a hike. You're overselling -- DRASTICALLY -- both the decline of Lowell and the usefulness of Beltre, and grossly mischaracterizing my position, and worse you're trying to bludgeon me into silence with hindsight. You can GFY.

 

....

 

With all due respect of course.

[BSN07]

Nice. Way to totally duck the argument rather than actually address the fact that people are badly overinflating what park factors will mean in the event of a Beltre acquisition.

 

Of course, unless it's Miguel Cabrera and Matt Holliday, which is probably a superior solution. Heck, it's what you've said you want in a couple other places

 

Sorry mate, didn't mean to duck the topic, I had to go drop my GF off, it was more of a quick comment.

 

Ok first off I believe we are discussing personal opinions at this point. I see the stats one way, you see them another.

 

Manny is a HOF elite hitter. To be an elite hitter I believe you need to be able to produce anywhere(stadiums) and with any lineup surrounding you. That's what separates the elite from the rest of the league.

 

Beltre is not elite, nor have I stated him to be. I think he is good and would benefit from a change of scenery(team).

 

 

 

Yes of course, totally agree. I would rather Have Miggy then just about everyone else. But it's a pipe dream right now. And the best non pipe dream player available is Beltre IMO. That's why I am pushing for him, and would support the acquisition.

[riverside sluggers]

If this were the attitude' date=' wouldn't you have been for the Teixeira signing?[/quote']

 

No because he touted Lars Anderson as the future 1st baseman. In a year, Lars' prospect status has dropped considerably

[BSN07]

I know your pushing for Laroche, which is a lost cause. Nothing personal against the guy, it's just not going to happen.

 

Besides if you get Laroche your replacing a GG 1B with a guy with a -UZR150 rating(I know it's not the best for 1B ). And then taking that GG first basemen and moving him to 3B where he is good, but not great.

 

Why not just add Beltre which will put GG's at both corners?

 

Both Beltre and Laroche are 25 HR guys. But Beltre is RH which the Sox desperately need.

 

And I swear if you bring up Huff or Branyan I will disown you

[Dojji]

No because he touted Lars Anderson as the future 1st baseman. In a year' date=' Lars' prospect status has dropped considerably[/quote']

 

And when I said it I was right. I don't think it was reasonable to expect me or anyone else to predict just how far Anderson's stock was going to fall.

[Paradisecity]

I haven't spoken on the merits or shortcomings of Adrian Beltre once. So I'm not sure how I could oversell his usefulness. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that might be the first time I've even written his name on this board.

 

I haven't brought it up. That has been on purpose. The point that is being brought up is that nobody seems to be worthy of replacing Mike Lowell to you, including moving over a gold glove, MVP vote getting 1B for another gold glove MVP vote getting, switch hitting 1B. which was an option.

 

Regarding the above-average swap, I could buy into that logic if one player wasn't age 34 (and that is allegedly) coming off a 113 game season (where coincidentally, he put up nearly identical stats to this year) But I do remember you saying that, and I could buy into that argument.

 

I'm not bludgeoning you with hindsight. I'm bludgeoning you with the FORESIGHT that most reasonable people had regarding Mike Lowell, mid-30's coming off of hip surgery.

 

Did I not talk about this extensively last offseason, with you right in the thick of the argument? Could you explain, then, how it is hindsight?

 

The only person it is hindsight for, is you. My foresight was 20/20. With Lowell AND Ortiz. 50 games out of the lineup. Definitely not a drain on team resources, whatsoever.

 

 

Personally, I'm kind of neutral on Beltre, other than the concept that we'd essentially be paying him like 17M to play third after the Lowell dump (assuming Lowell could actually play 3rd next year).