When will JD get his Due?

[rhet]

68 real runs batted in for the top paid player on the team, a middle of the order hitter. And 13% of them came in the garbage time last ten games. Those are real facts.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Here's another real fact. RBI is a completely irrational, illogical, unreliable, abortion of a statistic that provides as much baseball insight as a stale raisin cookie.

[Cocos Disciples]

Hold on guys .... he's right on the numbers for JVA BUT the guy only has 11 AB this year

 

that's real week

 

how about using someone who has over 400 AB?

 

Yeah, I mentioned that. Nobody took that example seriously anyways.

 

68 real runs batted in for the top paid player on the team' date=' a middle of the order hitter. And 13% of them came in the garbage time last ten games. Those are real facts.[/quote']

 

We have posted other, more substantial real facts and you have chosen to ignore them, cover your ears and sing a song. I guess this discussion is over.

[yankees228]

68 real runs batted in for the top paid player on the team' date=' a middle of the order hitter. And 13% of them came in the garbage time last ten games. Those are real facts.[/quote']

 

But you understand that RBIs are a team dependent statistic, right? You also understand that their are much better statistics that can be used to judge a player's offensive value, right?

 

You obviously don't like Drew. Is it because of the money? Is it because he doesn't get his uniform as dirty as Trot Nixon did?

 

I was going to throw out some statistics to prove my point, but I realize it would be futile because you will simply disregard them.

[rhet]

Here's another real fact. RBI is a completely irrational' date=' illogical, unreliable, abortion of a statistic that provides as much baseball insight as a stale raisin cookie.[/quote']

 

I disagree.

[Dojji]

I disagree.

 

It's not really a matter for disagreement. It's a fact. RBI is far too dependent on other players' performance to make it a useful evaluation of indivudlal talent.

 

The term for people who disagree with facts is "wrong," by the way. There is no opt-out clause on reality.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Boy I sure miss the days of baseball when it was fun and you looked at things at face value instead of through crazy equations and statistics. You people have turned this from a sport to a damn school subject.

[rhet]

But you understand that RBIs are a team dependent statistic, right? You also understand that their are much better statistics that can be used to judge a player's offensive value, right?

 

You obviously don't like Drew. Is it because of the money? Is it because he doesn't get his uniform as dirty as Trot Nixon did?

 

I was going to throw out some statistics to prove my point, but I realize it would be futile because you will simply disregard them.

 

Here we go again. RBIs are a "team" stat. That's precisely why I used the example of his BA and OBP with the bases loaded. .206 and .297, respectively. No other teammate is responsible for his inability to contribute at a reasonable level with these potential runs on the bases. Irrefutable fact. Plain as day.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Here we go again. RBIs are a "team" stat. That's precisely why I used the example of his BA and OBP with the bases loaded. .206 and .297' date=' respectively. No other teammate is responsible for his inability to contribute at a reasonable level with these potential runs on the bases. Irrefutable fact. Plain as day.[/quote']

 

You're trying to quantify what doesn't exist (clutch). Clutch hitting is a flat-out lie. If it wasn't, Ortiz would have more than one or two walk-off home runs since summer 2006.

[rhet]

Rhet' date=' you still haven't listened to the interview this thread is based on, have you? For the third time, I strongly suggest you do.[/quote']

 

CD, I listened to it. And like other interviews I've heard him give on Drew, it struck me as being defensive about Drew because of the contract he awarded him.

[Dojji]

Boy I sure miss the days of baseball when it was fun and you looked at things at face value instead of through crazy equations and statistics. You people have turned this from a sport to a damn school subject.

 

Because it's absolutely impossible that the people who study the numbers and stuff also enjoy watching a good athlete play the field, right?

 

There is no dichotomy between analytics and enjoyment. Just ask any poker player.

[Cocos Disciples]

Boy I sure miss the days of baseball when it was fun and you looked at things at face value instead of through crazy equations and statistics. You people have turned this from a sport to a damn school subject.

 

Are you serious? Baseball is what you want it to be. You can look at simple metrics like BA, HR, RBI, etc. You can go more in depth and use sabermetrics. You can choose to ignore statistics completely. Most people here fall into the second category, but there's room for the other two as well.

 

I'm fine with people ignoring statistics and just watching the games and enjoying them for face value. What bothers me is when people try to disparage people who go more in depth into the sport.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Boy I sure miss the days of baseball when it was fun and you looked at things at face value instead of through crazy equations and statistics. You people have turned this from a sport to a damn school subject.

 

We're trying to judge players skills and contributions accurately. RBI and batting average do not allow for that. Its that simple.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

CD' date=' I listened to it. And like other interviews I've heard him give on Drew, it struck me as being defensive about Drew because of the contract he awarded him.[/quote']

Holy f***ing s***.

[redsoxrules]

Here we go again. RBIs are a "team" stat. That's precisely why I used the example of his BA and OBP with the bases loaded. .206 and .297' date=' respectively. No other teammate is responsible for his inability to contribute at a reasonable level with these potential runs on the bases. Irrefutable fact. Plain as day.[/quote']

 

so by your logic , Pedroia , Ellsbury , Lowell also suck because they dont have 100+ rbi's

[Dojji]

CD' date=' I listened to it. And like other interviews I've heard him give on Drew, it struck me as being defensive about Drew because of the contract he awarded him.[/quote']

 

JD Drew has lived up to any reasonable modern standard of performance.

 

He is a capable defensive RF by any standard. He hit 24 homers this year. His OPS is high. His OBP is high.

 

What is this hangup on RBI's? You're clinging to it like a life preserver just because it's the only standard of measurement by which Drew could possibly be concieved of as a liability on the field.

 

Your talk about defensiveness makes you either the kettle or the pot. Your choice. You, sir, are looking for any possible excuse to fail to give that man the credit he deserves for two consecutive excellent seasons for this team.

[rhet]

You're trying to quantify what doesn't exist (clutch). Clutch hitting is a flat-out lie. If it wasn't' date=' Ortiz would have more than one or two walk-off home runs since summer 2006.[/quote']

 

You're adding that component.

 

By using bases loaded, I'm just addressing the excuse that his low RBI rate is somehow due to team variables. If the bases are loaded, they're loaded. If you don't make an out, you'll drive in a run. His OBP of .297 is sub standard, especially for a middle of the order hitter.

[Dipre]

Rhet has managed Javier Lopez levels of trolling in this site.

 

RBI's are ********, my good sir.

 

The GM of the only team this decade to win two WS championships disregards them, and who the f*** told you you know more about baseball than this team FO's anyway?

[Dojji]

You're adding that component.

 

By using bases loaded, I'm just addressing the excuse that his low RBI rate is somehow due to team variables. If the bases are loaded, they're loaded. If you don't make an out, you'll drive in a run. His OBP of .297 is sub standard, especially for a middle of the order hitter.

 

you are attempting to eliminate variables by eliminating the portion of the sample that benefits Drew (most of it) and homing in on exactly the one scenario in which he appears weak.

 

This has nothing to do with any objective analysis of available data. You are rather brazenly spinning the facts to create an impression of Drew that is at odds with the reality, and you're using every dirty and underhanded trick of debate you know to do it.

 

And you're doing it so badly a 6 year old child could tell that that's exactly what you're doing.

[yankees228]

Are you serious? Baseball is what you want it to be. You can look at simple metrics like BA, HR, RBI, etc. You can go more in depth and use sabermetrics. You can choose to ignore statistics completely. Most people here fall into the second category, but there's room for the other two as well.

 

I'm fine with people ignoring statistics and just watching the games and enjoying them for face value. What bothers me is when people try to disparage people who go more in depth into the sport.

 

Very well said. I was about to respond with a sarcastic remark, but it's not worth the effort at this point. What you said sums it up perfectly.

[rhet]

JD Drew has lived up to any reasonable modern standard of performance.

 

He is a capable defensive RF by any standard. He hit 24 homers this year. His OPS is high. His OBP is high.

 

What is this hangup on RBI's? You're clinging to it like a life preserver just because it's the only standard of measurement by which Drew could possibly be concieved of as a liability on the field.

 

Your talk about defensiveness makes you either the kettle or the pot. Your choice. You, sir, are looking for any possible excuse to fail to give that man the credit he deserves for two consecutive excellent seasons for this team.

 

My only point was that he doesn't contribute enough. Just trying to answer the question asked in the thread header.

 

Sorry for getting all your knickers in a bunch.

[Dipre]

Very well said. I was about to respond with a sarcastic remark' date=' but it's not worth the effort at this point. What you said sums it up perfectly.[/quote']

 

Yeah statistical evidence doesn't matter at this point.

 

However, i will say this again.

 

Whoever thinks that the goal of an individual offensive player isn't to not make an out needs to rescind posting on this site, or he will be made fun of, because you cannot look past fact that most good lineups are built around exactly that philosophy.

 

So how the f*** can you argue with what works in the ACTUAL game?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You're adding that component.

 

Rly? You're not trying to slam him as an unclutch little weakling by using his bases-loaded numbers? That serves as a way to try and measure clutch, you know.

 

By using bases loaded, I'm just addressing the excuse that his meaningless low RBI rate is somehow due to team variables.

 

...

 

If the bases are loaded, they're loaded. If you don't make an out, you'll drive in a run. His OBP of .297 is sub standard, especially for a middle of the order hitter.

 

Ever think that his main strength, drawing walks, is a LITTLE BIT harder to pull off in those situations, seeing as the pitcher will pound the strike zone? You can't walk on balls inside the strike zone.

[Dojji]

My only point was that he doesn't contribute enough. Just trying to answer the question asked in the thread header.

 

Sorry for getting all your knickers in a bunch.

 

So you think that the RBI makes the right fielder, correct?

 

Who holds the reasonable standard of production you wish Drew to meet? What number of RBI's would satisfy you out of that spot in the lineup and on the field?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

-----

[rhet]

Rhet has managed Javier Lopez levels of trolling in this site.

 

RBI's are ********, my good sir.

 

The GM of the only team this decade to win two WS championships disregards them, and who the f*** told you you know more about baseball than this team FO's anyway?

 

The GM was being defensive.

It's happened before. He makes mistakes, just like all of us. Please don't ask me to list his mistakes - please.

 

And folks, there is no need to jump ugly with me. I enjoy discussing ball with you guys, so let's just calm down, ok?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Please don't ask me to list his mistakes - please.

 

Please, list his mistakes, then list his successes. Side by side.

[Dojji]

Just to make the point.

 

The last time any Boston right fielder had more than 68 RBI was Trot Nixon in 2003, in one of the most loaded lineups in Red Sox history. It was also the only really great year Nixon ever had.

 

Trot Nixon never drove in 100. What a bum.

[Dipre]

The GM was being defensive.

It's happened before. He makes mistakes, just like all of us. Please don't ask me to list his mistakes - please.

 

And folks, there is no need to jump ugly with me. I enjoy discussing ball with you guys, so let's just calm down, ok?

 

He's being defensive because while JD Drew is being nothing but one of the most productive OF's in baseball, people keep bashing him.

 

Put that .900 + OPS in the three, four, or five spot, and he probably contributes 100 RBI.

 

You're just bashing Drew with no way to back up your argument without resorting to such a useless statistic as RBI.

[rhet]

Please' date=' list his mistakes, then list his successes. Side by side.[/quote']

 

I'll take that as your acknowledgment that a two time WS champion GM has made some mistakes. Stipulated.