Billy Wagner

[SCM33]

Billy Wagner is just as good' date=' if not better than before his surgery[/quote']

 

From Anchorman:

Great story. Compelling, and rich.

[example1]

Wagner does look quite effective.

 

I think this may go down as an underrated move which could prove to be very good for the Sox. Wagner not only gives them an experienced power lefty; he also gives them another guy who has closed games before. I don't expect it to happen, but if something were to happen to Papelbon this team would not be caught completely flatfooted.

 

I hadn't spent much time looking at Wagner's career numbers. I always knew he was a really good pitcher, his team's "relief ace". His overall production is really, really impressive:

 

--In 13 years he has only ever had an ERA over 3 one time. In 2000 he had a 6.18 ERA in 22 IP, otherwise he's consistently in the 1's and 2's.

--1.006 career WHIP is better than Rivera's (we all know Mo's better--but Wagner still has 800+ career IP, not a small sample size for a very good number.

--If you take out his outlierish 2000 season, Wagner has never had a WHIP above 1.200. By comparison, only one Red Sox pitcher has a sub-1.200 WHIP this year (Beckett).

 

The Sox bullpen may supplement some of the weaknesses in the rotation. Today's game was a great example. No team would want to face (Beckett/Lester/Buchholz), Wagner, Bard, and Papelbon. That's a daunting task in a must-win situation.

[CrespoBlows]

You can even overlook 2000, because I believe he was injured.

 

He's one of the best of all time in the closer role.

[Dipre]

You can even overlook 2000, because I believe he was injured.

 

He's one of the best of all time in the closer role.

 

He was injured indeed.

[a700hitter]

He was injured indeed.

... and as a post surgical 39 year old, none of his prior statistics are useful in projecting his future performance.

[Dipre]

... and as a post surgical 39 year old' date=' none of his prior statistics are useful in projecting his future performance.[/quote']

 

His 96 MPH fastball and filthy slider seem to be the only tool useful for doing so.

 

Although no one has said anything about projecting his future performance, so what in heaven's name are you talking about, Clint?

[example1]

Although no one has said anything about projecting his future performance' date=' so what in heaven's name are you talking about, Clint?[/quote']

 

I was talking about how he could be a formidable force in the playoffs. I think his history of pitching actually does have something to do with his future performance, even coming off an injury. The injury impacts his physical ability to pitch, but clearly he's got a great closers head on his shoulders.

[a700hitter]

His 96 MPH fastball and filthy slider seem to be the only tool useful for doing so.

 

Although no one has said anything about projecting his future performance, so what in heaven's name are you talking about, Clint?

Example spent a lot of time on his 13 year record, which is not relevant post-surgery, except as part of his resume for Cooperstown. As you pointed out, it is relevant is how he is throwing today. He has gotten excellent results thus far, but his velocity (which would be great for most pitchers) is down and his breaking stuff is not as sharp as it used to be. His past record cannot be relied on as an indicator of continued or consistent success.

[a700hitter]

I was talking about how he could be a formidable force in the playoffs. I think his history of pitching actually does have something to do with his future performance' date=' even coming off an injury. The injury impacts his physical ability to pitch, but clearly he's got a great closers head on his shoulders.[/quote']

You can't separate the mental from the physical. Despite his great closer's head, his past success is no indicator of success with diminished physical stuff. It's a game of inches and losing half a foot on his fast ball or the sharp break on his slider could be the difference between domination and average or worse. We just have no way of knowing until it plays out. We also don't know if his stuff will be consistent from outing to outing. His past performance is not a reliable indicator in the least regarding his future performance.

[Dipre]

Example spent a lot of time on his 13 year record' date=' which is not relevant post-surgery, except as part of his resume for Cooperstown. As you pointed out, it is relevant is how he is throwing today. He has gotten excellent results thus far, but his velocity (which would be great for most pitchers) is down and his breaking stuff is not as sharp as it used to be. His past record cannot be relied on as an indicator of continued or consistent success.[/quote']

 

Ya i saw, lol.

 

In that case, you're right.

[Dojji]

9 strikeouts in 4 2/3 innings, only 2 hits allowed, a 1.35 ERA, is there anything this guy has done in a Red Sox uniform that hasn't been ridiculously dominant?

[BSN07]

He is the Anti-Gagne.

 

Dude has been filthy. Too bad there isn't away he stick around next season in this role.

 

But I'm sure he's earned a new contract somewhere. So that means picks for the Sox.

[RWTP24]

The Sox really need to find a way to keep him. He would be huge to have in the BP next year.

 

Maybe, just maybe, they can talk him in to being the set up man or have Pap switch role for now if it will help the Sox be a better team. Having both of them at the end of a game would be freaking huge. But, with all that said, we all know Pap is not going to have any of it, so let’s hope they can talk Wagner in switching roles.

[BoSox21]

I'd say it will entirely depend on the market for Wagner and the market probably gets better and better for him the better he pitches.

[RWTP24]

I'd say it will entirely depend on the market for Wagner and the market probably gets better and better for him the better he pitches.

 

 

Very true, but that should make the Sox want to keep him even more. The Sox would be very deadly if they had Pap and Wagner to close out games next year.

[RWTP24]

With all that being said, you would think these guys would do anything to win a RING. Now a day’s it is all about individual records.

[Dojji]

Wherever Wagner goes his team is more likely to win a ring

[BoSox21]

Very true' date=' but that should make the Sox want to keep him even more. The Sox would be very deadly if they had Pap and Wagner to close out games next year.[/quote']

 

I don't think the Sox's desire to keep Wagner is in question at all here. It's the fact that Wagner deep down wants to close and knows as long as Papelbon is here, he won't be the closer.

[RWTP24]

I don't think the Sox's desire to keep Wagner is in question at all here. It's the fact that Wagner deep down wants to close and knows as long as Papelbon is here' date=' he won't be the closer.[/quote']

 

Yes, which is very sad because Pap would not switch roles to make it a better team?

[BoSox21]

Yes' date=' which is very sad because Pap would not switch roles to make it a better team?[/quote']

 

Would it even make it a better team? Because Wagner has had a nice 5-inning stretch with this team? Papelbon has put up better stats over the last few years than Wagner while pitching in the game's best hitting division as opposed to Wagner, who's been in the NL his entire career up to now.

[RWTP24]

Would it even make it a better team? Because Wagner has had a nice 5-inning stretch with this team? Papelbon has put up better stats over the last few years than Wagner while pitching in the game's best hitting division as opposed to Wagner' date=' who's been in the NL his entire career up to now.[/quote']

 

 

Well, those are some good points. Maybe its just me, but i really like what i see. Really good BP pitchers are hard to come by. I would much rather see him be the set up man. i think he would fit in very well there.

 

Do you agree with that?? Set up man not a closer?

[BoSox21]

I don't want to see Papelbon anywhere but as the closer. Ramon Ramirez allowed 1 ER in his first 20 IP for this team this year, would you have moved Pap for him as the closer?

[RWTP24]

I don't want to see Papelbon anywhere but as the closer. Ramon Ramirez allowed 1 ER in his first 20 IP for this team this year' date=' would you have moved Pap for him as the closer?[/quote']

 

 

Nope.. I get your point. RR has really sucked the last half of the season.. well, everyone has not been very good the last half.

[BSN07]

Papelbon is fine where he is at. There's no reason to move him. Wagner has been great, but it;s only 5 innings. Beside Wagner wants to close. And I'm sure there is a contender out there that would give him that opportunity. I could see the Cubs being interested in him. They need a closer. And he shouldn't command more then a 2 year deal. I'm sure there some other teams out there as well. Who knows, maybe he ends up in TB?

[RWTP24]

Papelbon is fine where he is at. There's no reason to move him. Wagner has been great' date=' but it;s only 5 innings. Beside Wagner wants to close. And I'm sure there is a contender out there that would give him that opportunity. I could see the Cubs being interested in him. They need a closer. And he shouldn't command more then a 2 year deal. I'm sure there some other teams out there as well. Who knows, maybe he ends up in TB?[/quote']

 

 

I could see him in TB, but are they willing to pay the money? We know they do not like to spend a lot.

[BSN07]

I could see him in TB' date=' but are they willing to pay the money? We know they do not like to spend a lot.[/quote']

 

Not sure what Wagner is worth on the market right now. I know there cash flow is limited though. So I could see them having trouble there. But I know there is some team out there willing to take a flier on him.

 

Detroit? Nationals? Houston? Someone lol

[RWTP24]

Not sure what Wagner is worth on the market right now. I know there cash flow is limited though. So I could see them having trouble there. But I know there is some team out there willing to take a flier on him.

 

Detroit? Nationals? Houston? Someone lol

 

LOL I'm sure he will go just about anywhere because all he wants is the individual record at this point. So with that said, i could see the Nationals or Houston.

[ORS]

Better hope it isn't the Natinals or Astros. Their picks will be protected. I'm hoping someone like the Rays takes interest, so they get a 1st round pick.

[Dojji]

My first guess would be the Cubs. But I wouldn't be too surprised if he made a triumphant return to Philadelphia. They've been smarting for late inning help.

[BSN07]

Better hope it isn't the Natinals or Astros. Their picks will be protected. I'm hoping someone like the Rays takes interest' date=' so they get a 1st round pick.[/quote']

 

My first guess would be the Cubs. But I wouldn't be too surprised if he made a triumphant return to Philadelphia. They've been smarting for late inning help.

 

I didn't even think of Philly. That's a good one. It could work with Lidge's latest meltdown. It's the 40 save curse for him:lol:

 

I mentioned the Cubs. I think the make a lot of sense. But I will admit I am on the record saying Papelbon is a Cub next year;)

 

I'm with ORS, The Nationals and/or Houston would absolutely suck. Along with any other tams 1st rounder.

 

Also we have to consider the chance a team signs him that has alreasy signed a FA that out ranks Wagner. There too the Sox would be looking at a 1A instead of a 1 I believe.