Bard vs Papelbon

[Dojji]

Proves absolutely nothing.

 

Are you sure? Because I think it does prove that these guys are human beings rather than statistical entries. No matter how much statistical baseball science evolves, there will always be factors that go beyond the numbers.

 

Personally I think we should relax. We have Bard and papelbon both, Paps is still an above average among his elite company even with his "struggles,"and we're at this moment blowing a miserable Baltimore scrub into the ionosphere. Things are good. We don't have to make this call now or even really form an opinion on it.

[a700hitter]

So you are presenting your experience pitching to beer-bellied, gray-haired clowns as something to be proud of and the reason why you know so much more about late-inning gut checks than any other know-nothing here.

 

I do not envy you.

Most of the guys in my league are in their 20's and early 30's. Most played high school ball, a good number played in college and few went beyond that. The game is essentially the same. The difference is talent level. The psychology and dynamic of closing out a game is the same whether it be high school, college, AA, AAA or the majors. Denigrate my experience if you will. I don't care. I've told you what I have heard from major league pitchers, but I guess you are disregarding that too.

[Looch Ness Monster]

Wow I didn't expect this thread to blow up like it has.

 

My point: Bard deserves the chance to earn the closer role next season. In Spring Training 2007 they were willing to hand the role over to J.C. Romero while trying to decide whether Papelbon was a closer or starter still. Daniel Bard is starting to show me something that says he can close one day if given the chance. I'm not saying trade Papelbon in the offseason like JE is. I'm saying PUT SOME PRESSURE ON HIM TO PERFORM BETTER. When somebody gets too comfortable in a role, especially with the arrogance of a guy like Paps, that's when you start to see negative results.

[schillingouttheks]

Okay, everyone needs to stop f***ing insulting each other. Holy s***.

[Dipre]

Proves absolutely nothing.

 

It proves some ballplayers are creatures of habit, and sometimes don't perform up to their usual standards when taken off their familiar surroundings.

[Dojji]

Wow I didn't expect this thread to blow up like it has.

 

My point: Bard deserves the chance to earn the closer role next season. In Spring Training 2007 they were willing to hand the role over to J.C. Romero while trying to decide whether Papelbon was a closer or starter still. Daniel Bard is starting to show me something that says he can close one day if given the chance. I'm not saying trade Papelbon in the offseason like JE is. I'm saying PUT SOME PRESSURE ON HIM TO PERFORM BETTER. When somebody gets too comfortable in a role, especially with the arrogance of a guy like Paps, that's when you start to see negative results.

No I don't think so. Bard is good, but Papelbon is just as good and far more experienced.

 

If we still have Bard when we lose control of Papelbon, and paps wants too much money, then Bard should close. Until then we should be glad to have both of them in our pen

[a700hitter]

Are you sure? Because I think it does prove that these guys are human beings rather than statistical entries. No matter how much statistical baseball science evolves, there will always be factors that go beyond the numbers.

Unless you have a stat to prove that players are human, your opinion is invalid.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Most of the guys in my league are in their 20's and early 30's. Most played high school ball' date=' a good number played in college and few went beyond that. The game is essentially the same. The difference is talent level. The psychology and dynamic of closing out a game is the same whether it be high school, college, AA, AAA or the majors.[/quote']

 

There is so psychology or dynamic here. It is getting outs. Just because you pitched the 9th inning against high school baseball rejects and humiliated yourself in front of a 150 person crowd doesn't make your experience the tell-all factor.

 

Enigrate my experience if you will. I don't care. I've told you what I have heard from major league pitchers, but I guess you are disregarding that too.

 

Most major league players view RBI's, batting average, and pitcher wins as telling, effective, solid individual stats.

[CrespoBlows]

Are you sure? Because I think it does prove that these guys are human beings rather than statistical entries. No matter how much statistical baseball science evolves' date=' there will always be factors that go beyond the numbers.[/quote']

 

One player's performance would not prove that point.

[schillingouttheks]

There is so psychology or dynamic here. It is getting outs. Just because you pitched the 9th inning against high school baseball rejects and humiliated yourself in front of a 150 person crowd doesn't make your experience the tell-all factor.

 

See? This is blatantly unnecessary. Stop.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

See? This is blatantly unnecessary. Stop.

My bad, you made your prior post while I was replying.

[Looch Ness Monster]

No I don't think so. Bard is good, but Papelbon is just as good and far more experienced.

 

If we still have Bard when we lose control of Papelbon, and paps wants too much money, then Bard should close. Until then we should be glad to have both of them in our pen

 

I understand that but the writing is on the wall for Papelbon. He's a hard headed player that has pretty much abandoned the breaking ball and relies on his fastball. I don't know about you but when I watch him come into the game I cringe because a clean inning for him is a walk, a single, a groundout, a strikeout, another walk and then a long flyball to the warning track it seems like. We're lucky to have gotten so much production out of him but I don't want to see what happens when he stops getting lucky and they turn into blown saves more often.

[a700hitter]

There is so psychology or dynamic here. It is getting outs. Just because you pitched the 9th inning against high school baseball rejects and humiliated yourself in front of a 150 person crowd doesn't make your experience the tell-all factor.

 

 

 

Most major league players view RBI's, batting average, and pitcher wins as telling, effective, solid individual stats.

SO, you disagree, and no one can convince you. Fine. Stop being a nasty little twit. High School rejects? You must be a huge loser.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

but I don't want to see what happens when he stops getting lucky and they turn into blown saves more often.

 

If that happens in a Red Sox uniform, it will mean the front office is stuck with an imploding relief pitcher and failed to maximize value while they still could.

 

Closers have a shelf life.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

SO' date=' you disagree, and no one can convince you. Fine. Stop being a nasty little twit. High School rejects? You must be a huge loser.[/quote']

*cries and cuts wrists*

[Dipre]

One player's performance would not prove that point.

 

It was an example.

 

However, i could name a list of at least 20 relievers or position players who have:

 

Tanked when taken out of the 1 spot.

 

Or.

 

Dominated as s SU man, and s*** the bed as a CL.

[schillingouttheks]

Okay. Insults over. Intelligent discussion start.

 

annnnnnnnnnd go.

[CrespoBlows]

It was an example.

 

However, i could name a list of at least 20 relievers or position players who have:

 

Tanked when taken out of the 1 spot.

 

Or.

 

Dominated as s SU man, and s*** the bed as a CL.

 

Would Rivera, Jenks, Papelbon, etc.. prove the contrary point to be true?

[Dojji]

Or, like Coco, tanked when put IN the 1 spot.

 

And Lugo for that matter.

[schillingouttheks]

Would Rivera' date=' Jenks, Papelbon, etc.. prove the contrary point to be true?[/quote']

 

I'll double check right now, but don't those guys have relatively SSS before their transitions? I could argue that they never got comfortable in their first role for the contrary point to be proven true. That is, obviously, if what I'm about to look up is correct. I could be wrong though.

[Dojji]

Would Rivera' date=' Jenks, Papelbon, etc.. prove the contrary point to be true?[/quote']

 

I don't think so. I think you'd need more than just a guy who was a great closer, I think you'd need a guy who was a good setup man, sucked as a closer and got over it.

[Dipre]

Would Rivera' date=' Jenks, Papelbon, etc.. prove the contrary point to be true?[/quote']

 

Not necessarily.

 

Because it depends on the player.

 

Because then JD Drew, Pedroia and Youk would mean /enddiscussion.

[CrespoBlows]

Not necessarily.

 

Because it depends on the player.

 

Because then JD Drew, Pedroia and Youk would mean /enddiscussion.

 

No, it wouldn't, because it would still be an extremely tiny sample.

[CrespoBlows]

I don't think so. I think you'd need more than just a guy who was a great closer' date=' I think you'd need a guy who was a good setup man, sucked as a closer and got over it.[/quote']

 

These guys all transitioned smoothly into their roles, as did most of the closers pitching in MLB today.

[Dojji]

These guys all transitioned smoothly into their roles' date=' as did most of the closers pitching in MLB today.[/quote']

 

That plays to the other point actually, that there are some guys who can just close and there are some guys who can just not close.

[Dipre]

No' date=' it wouldn't, because it would still be an extremely tiny sample.[/quote']

 

It was a joke, because the samples would cancel each other out, sir.

 

I need to get this smiley thing down.

[CrespoBlows]

That plays to the other point actually' date=' that there are some guys who can just close and there are some guys who can just not close.[/quote']

 

Dependent on talent level, not any mental fortitude that you claim they have.

[Dojji]

Dependent on talent level' date=' not any mental fortitude that you claim they have.[/quote']

 

There are very talented players that never make the majors or can't perform there. Why is closer any different?

[Dipre]

Dependent on talent level' date=' not any mental fortitude that you claim they have.[/quote']

 

Brad Lidge?

[Mr Crunchy]

Theres obviously more pressure coming into a game in the 9th than in the 8th, it isnt debatable in my opinion but I have also noted that winning teams over the years have needed their 11th or 12th pitcher at one point to get an out and will have the season in his hands.

The idea of replacing paplebon with bard is rather assinine at this stage of the year.

Even the 96 Yankees kept Rivera in the setup role and allowed veteran John Wettleland to close out the games, he was the mvp of that series if im not mistaken and it was clear that if NY had a lead in the 7th you were f***ed.

We dont know what Bard is going to do for the rest of the year but we do know what paplebon is probably going to do. theres no way on earth Bard is closing this year as long as paplebon is healthy.

That said what we've seen of Dan Bard is awesome and it makes our bullpen that much more effective and it also provides us an option if for some reason paps is ineffective or hurt, he's been neither despite some panicky words being written here..

Paps is our closer, Bard has won over the setup role and will close on games that Paps is used up.

We have had worse problems and its too bad neither man can play short like they pitch.