How good is Terry Francona??

[Dipre]

He's not wrong. Name all of the strategies Francona can use.

 

OOOH THE DOUBLE SWITCH!!!1

 

How about not sitting Drew against lefties because he owns them?

 

OOOOH PUTTING THE BEST LINEUP OUT THERE!!!!11!!!

[example1]

Lol , this discussion was long and interesting enough to wash away any feeling of anger i may have had.

 

If spark discussion was your intent, well done.

 

Honestly man, that's usually my intent. That's kind of what this board is all about, isn't it? It isn't about makin people feel s***** about themselves. I hope that's not what you were getting from my posts, or my requests for more elaboration.

[TheKilo]

How about not sitting Drew against lefties because he owns them?

 

OOOOH PUTTING THE BEST LINEUP OUT THERE!!!!11!!!

 

How is that in-game strategy?

[Dipre]

Honestly man' date=' that's usually my intent. That's kind of what this board is all about, isn't it? It isn't about makin people feel s***** about themselves. I hope that's not what you were getting from my posts, or my requests for more elaboration.[/quote']

 

I honestly wanted to beat you silly.

 

But that's in the past now.

[Dipre]

How is that in-game strategy?

 

Exactly.

 

As Doiji explained, there are none "In-Game Strategies" but "In-game tactics" take your beef to him.

 

(I'm just messing with you man, but you know BP management could be better.)

[Dojji]

How about not sitting Drew against lefties because he owns them?

 

OOOOH PUTTING THE BEST LINEUP OUT THERE!!!!11!!!

 

That goes back to sort of what I was ineptly trying to say. Strategy vs. tactics.

 

the "tactical" situation, IE any one game, yeah sure, play Drew. But you know he's going to need regular rest. If he doesn't get it he might not be in any condition to help us in October. Bearing that in mind, why not use Baldelli against lefthanders not necessarily beacuse Drew is bad against lefties, but because Baldelli is good against them and that ensures the built-in rest Drew needs while giving him an excuse not to play without being seen as a total wuss?

 

Seen that way, the tactic might not have put us in the best position to win every possible game, but the strategy is paying off. we're most of the way through the season and Drew is still effective and healthy -- at least as healthy as he ever is.

[example1]

How about not sitting Drew against lefties because he owns them?

 

OOOOH PUTTING THE BEST LINEUP OUT THERE!!!!11!!!

 

Back to the discussion...

 

To me this would be a problem if this team consistently missed the playoffs by one game or didn't have good results.

 

I see Francona's sitting of his stars as both frustrating and planful. He won't sit Drew against a lefty in the playoffs unless Drew is really bad against that player. There appears to be a real difference in how he forms his lineups in "ought to win" games vs. "must win" games, and the results have been pretty spectacular IMO.

 

I too get frustrated when Drew sits on a night when both V-Mart and Youk are out of the lineup. Then again, when they win those games and Drew is used appropriately as a pinch hitter, I can't complain too much.

 

Also, I like Baldelli a lot more than I liked Gabe Kaplar.

[Dipre]

Exactly.

 

As Doiji explained, there are none "In-Game Strategies" but "In-game tactics" take your beef to him.

 

(I'm just messing with you man, but you know BP management could be better.)

 

That goes back to sort of what I was ineptly trying to say. Strategy vs. tactics.

 

the "tactical" situation, IE any one game, yeah sure, play Drew. But you know he's going to need regular rest. If he doesn't get it he might not be in any condition to help us in October. Bearing that in mind, why not use Baldelli against lefthanders not necessarily beacuse Drew is bad against lefties, but because Baldelli is good against them and that ensures the built-in rest Drew needs while giving him an excuse not to play without being seen as a total wuss?

 

Seen that way, the tactic might not have put us in the best position to win every possible game, but the strategy is paying off. we're most of the way through the season and Drew is still effective.

[The_Destroyah]

I honestly wanted to beat you silly.

 

But that's in the past now.

 

I honestly want to slit every member of your families throat.

 

I still do.

 

 

honestly how would you grade Tito's In Game Strategy on a 100 point scalt 1 being absolutely unacceptable and 100 being perfect.

[Dipre]

I honestly want to slit every member of your families throat.

 

I still do.

 

 

honestly how would you grade Tito's In Game Strategy on a 100 point scalt 1 being absolutely unacceptable and 100 being perfect.

 

85.

[example1]

That goes back to sort of what I was ineptly trying to say. Strategy vs. tactics.

 

the "tactical" situation, IE any one game, yeah sure, play Drew. But you know he's going to need regular rest. If he doesn't get it he might not be in any condition to help us in October. Bearing that in mind, why not use Baldelli against lefthanders not necessarily beacuse Drew is bad against lefties, but because Baldelli is good against them and that ensures the built-in rest Drew needs while giving him an excuse not to play without being seen as a total wuss?

 

Seen that way, the tactic might not have put us in the best position to win every possible game, but the strategy is paying off. we're most of the way through the season and Drew is still effective.

 

So then strategy should trump tactics every time. We agree he's good with strategy and that his tactics may be questionable (a premise I"m not willing to concede yet). In either case, having poor tactics would be a much less grievous crime than having poor strategy.

 

If his strategy is encapsulated by his resting of players, he lack of bunting or stealing bases, his non-use of the hit and run, his use of platooning players and resting arms in the bullpen for their longterm health--all of these ultimately helping the team get to the playoffs (not bunting, etc.,) and winning in the playoffs (having arms that can be effective in the 163rd-180thish games) then what more could we possibly ask for? :dunno:

 

I think that Francona may have been hired for his big picture, longterm view of the game and the franchise. Much like Theo was hired for the same reason. It seems like a winning strategy and a winning choice.

 

Anyone else see Pedro throw 130 pitches the other night? Do they want him to be useful in the playoffs?

[example1]

EDIT MY LAST POST:

 

Strategy should trump tactics every time, except in the playoffs, when Tito's tactics really can't be questioned. Seems like exactly the mix a good team would want from its skipper, right?

[Dipre]

So then strategy should trump tactics every time. We agree he's good with strategy and that his tactics may be questionable (a premise I"m not willing to concede yet). In either case, having poor tactics would be a much less grievous crime than having poor strategy.

 

If his strategy is encapsulated by his resting of players, he lack of bunting or stealing bases, his non-use of the hit and run, his use of platooning players and resting arms in the bullpen for their longterm health--all of these ultimately helping the team get to the playoffs (not bunting, etc.,) and winning in the playoffs (having arms that can be effective in the 163rd-180thish games) then what more could we possibly ask for? :dunno:

 

I think that Francona may have been hired for his big picture, longterm view of the game and the franchise. Much like Theo was hired for the same reason. It seems like a winning strategy and a winning choice.

 

Anyone else see Pedro throw 130 pitches the other night? Do they want him to be useful in the playoffs?

 

This is actually one of my points.

 

Am i the only one who sees Tito consistently leaving both SPs and RPs too long?

 

It may not "hurt" in the long run, but keeping a pitcher's confidence (and of course allowing the less runs possible) is a very important part of managing.

[Dojji]

So then strategy should trump tactics every time. We agree he's good with strategy and that his tactics may be questionable (a premise I"m not willing to concede yet). In either case' date=' having poor tactics would be a much less grievous crime than having poor strategy.[/quote']

 

A great example of poor strategy bleeding into tactics -- Grady Little never seemed capable of thinking more than 2 games ahead and so what he did in game often seemed... well you could probably have come up with better moves with a pair of dice and a spreadsheet of possible managerial decisions. His abuse of, and subsequent lack of faith in, his bullpen was damning and probably formed part of why he left Pedro in game 7.

 

If his strategy is encapsulated by his resting of players, he lack of bunting or stealing bases, his non-use of the hit and run, his use of platooning players and resting arms in the bullpen for their longterm health--all of these ultimately helping the team get to the playoffs (not bunting, etc.,) and winning in the playoffs (having arms that can be effective in the 163rd-180thish games) then what more could we possibly ask for? :dunno:

 

That's kind of the way I feel about it.

[TheKilo]

Exactly.

 

As Doiji explained, there are none "In-Game Strategies" but "In-game tactics" take your beef to him.

 

(I'm just messing with you man, but you know BP management could be better.)

 

I agree his BP management could be better but he's improved since '04 and he's the best playoff manager in the game, IMO (at least of those who will be playing in October).

[example1]

This is actually one of my points.

 

Am i the only one who sees Tito consistently leaving both SPs and RPs too long?

 

It may not "hurt" in the long run, but keeping a pitcher's confidence (and of course allowing the less runs possible) is a very important part of managing.

 

I don't see it. I think he takes out pitchers at a pretty reasonable time, except when he's trying to rest the bullpen. If he leaves Byrd in longer than I might like a day after the pen was used and in a game he doesn't expect to win, that's fine with me. If he leaves Dice-K in too long so he can blow his win and feel dejected about his performance for no reason, then I would complain.

[Dojji]

Am i the only one who sees Tito consistently leaving both SPs and RPs too long?

 

No. I for one don't see it at all. If anything he's been moderately quick with the hook this year. No one has sniffed 130 pitches. I'm not even sure anyone's thrown 120 -- maybe Lester once.

[Dipre]

I agree his BP management could be better but he's improved since '04 and he's the best playoff manager in the game' date=' [/b']IMO (at least of those who will be playing in October).

 

This, however, you can make an argument for. Except for his brain-fart against the Rays, his managing was impeccable.

[Dipre]

No. I for one don't see it at all. If anything he's been moderately quick with the hook this year. No one has sniffed 130 pitches. I'm not even sure anyone's thrown 120 -- maybe Lester once.

 

Your premise is wrong.

 

I'm talking about leaving pitchers one more inning than he should.

 

I'll refer to the Beckett vs Yankees game again.

[example1]

This' date=' however, you can make an argument for. Except for his brain-fart against the Rays, his managing was impeccable.[/quote']

 

And his tactics in games have been spectacular. Think about all of the moves he had to make to win those extra inning games against the Yankees in 04 and in the close games against the Guardians in 07.

 

I think people make too much of Beckett's issues in 08. Beckett was warn down in 08 by the time the playoffs came around and he was considerably less effective than he was earlier in the year.

 

I think the call of bringing Pedro in in 04 was as much about exorcizing demons as it was a good baseball move. I agree with everyone who thought it was a horrible move. It was so bad that I literally had to leave the house because I couldn't watch. But that was EARLY in his career. He's still a young manager (even now) and I think it is fair to expect that he has learned a lot since then.

[Dojji]

Your premise is wrong.

 

I'm talking about leaving pitchers one more inning than he should.

 

I'll refer to the Beckett vs Yankees game again.

 

I still don't really see it. I mean, every manager leaves the starter in a little too long from time to time, since no one's mass producing crystal balls anywhere that I know about, but I don't think Tito has been a worse offender than anyone else (quite the reverse IMHO)

[example1]

Your premise is wrong.

 

I'm talking about leaving pitchers one more inning than he should.

 

I'll refer to the Beckett vs Yankees game again.

 

How was the bullpen doing that game? (I literally don't know... I"m curious) And how was the bullpen used in subsequent games?

 

IIRC (and I often don't) they needed Beckett to go deeper in that game because the pen was either tired or was going to be needed in the next few games.

[Dipre]

I still don't really see it. I mean' date=' every manager leaves the starter in a little too long from time to time,[b'] since no one's mass producing crystal balls anywhere that I know about,[/b] but I don't think Tito has been a worse offender than anyone else (quite the reverse IMHO)

 

A) What does that bring to the argument?

 

B ) He does it with some consistency, he seems to let himself get persuaded a lot by pitchers for that "One more inning".

 

See: Smoltz, John.

[The_Destroyah]

I think Tito will retire one of if not the best manager Boston has seen. If you dont say that already.

[example1]

Right now's situation in the Angels game might be a good example of what you're talking about though Dipre. Bullpen is rested, would be a nice game to win. Let's see how this goes...

 

Could be a huge confidence boost for Beckett... or a bad choice.

 

EDIT: Situation is guys on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs, Figgins batting, up by a run.

 

EDIT 2: RESULT: Passed ball on a K. Not something tito could have managed around. Ouch in either case.

[Dipre]

Right now's situation in the Angels game might be a good example of what you're talking about though Dipre. Bullpen is rested, would be a nice game to win. Let's see how this goes...

 

Could be a huge confidence boost for Beckett... or a bad choice.

 

Lol tie game.

 

But this time it's Varitek's and not Francona's fault. <_>

 

Why the f*** do we keep running Varitek out there?

[Dojji]

Lol tie game.

 

But this time it's Varitek's and not Francona's fault. <_>

 

Why the f*** do we keep running Varitek out there?

 

Beats me. I could stand some starts from Brown or Kottaras at this point.

[Dipre]

Beats me. I could stand some starts from Brown or Kottaras at this point.

 

We strangely agree on something.

[example1]

Bizarre series of events with both of the recent Tek miscues. It feels like a freakish coincidence.

[Dipre]

Bizarre series of events with both of the recent Tek miscues. It feels like a freakish coincidence.

 

It feels like he's showing his age really.