Who Should Lead Off?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Jacoby Ellsbury the other night against the nats got on 1st stole 2nd and took third on a sac fly...how many other guys on the team could do that...not drew...i think baserunning is getting very underrated here

So?

[Dipre]

Jacoby Ellsbury the other night against the nats got on 1st stole 2nd and took third on a sac fly...how many other guys on the team could do that...not drew...i think baserunning is getting very underrated here

 

Not underrated, but overshadowed by the importance of OBP, you can't steal first, and you can't score if you don't get there.

[Dutchy]

Not underrated' date=' but overshadowed by the importance of OBP, you can't steal first, and you can't score if you don't get there.[/quote']

 

This.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

lets figure out who the best 5 or so leadoff hitters are in the game...i think there is a reason that after over a hundred years of baseball the speedy guys are at the top of the lineup...if its JUST these traditionalists or whatever that believe that guys like drew shouldnt lead off then why dont more guys like drew lead off?

[Dutchy]

lets figure out who the best 5 or so leadoff hitters are in the game...i think there is a reason that after over a hundred years of baseball the speedy guys are at the top of the lineup...if its just these traditionalists or whatever that believe that guys like drew should lead off then why dont more guys like drew lead off?

 

Because Drew would be a 3-5 hitter on most teams.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

So?

 

are you being a dick for a reason or just cuzzz

[Cocos Disciples]

are you being a dick for a reason or just cuzzz

 

He's right. Besides the fact that your example was only one sample, you want a guy with a better chance to get on base to get the most ABs.

[Dipre]

are you being a dick for a reason or just cuzzz

 

This is going places.

 

He was just asking for a legitimate explanation, sir.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

He's right. Besides the fact that your example was only one sample' date=' you want a guy with a better chance to get on base to get the most ABs.[/quote']

 

 

well then i guess the conversation is over guys...cuz the guy with the best chance to get on base isnt pedroia, drew or ellsbury...

 

 

its youk

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

are you being a dick for a reason or just cuzzz

How am I being a dick exactly?

 

 

Explain how Ellsbury stealing 2nd and taking 3rd on a sac fly is something that you could use to justify him being a leadoff hitter? He's already proven that he can't handle the way pitchers treat him in the leadoff spot, and that the way they treat him in his current spot allows him to get on base more, since his sub-par bat isn't getting molested by pitchers pounding the strike zone.

 

 

Solution: bat him 9th, best of both worlds... he can get the more Ellsbury-friendly pitch treatment, and having guys like Drew and Youk (with their OBPs) follow him up can help move him into scoring position, where his speed then, and only then, becomes a huge asset.

[Cocos Disciples]

well then i guess the conversation is over guys...cuz the guy with the best chance to get on base isnt pedroia, drew or ellsbury...

 

 

its youk

 

Youk is also one of the two guys with the best chances to drive runs in. Seriously, what lineup do you want?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

well then i guess the conversation is over guys...cuz the guy with the best chance to get on base isnt pedroia, drew or ellsbury...

 

 

its youk

Youk is also a main source of power for this team.

[Dutchy]

Youk is also one of the two guys with the best chances to drive runs in. Seriously' date=' what lineup do you want?[/quote']

 

I wonder what would happen if we clinched home field advantage in September and Tito decided to do an experiment and make a lineup based solely on OBP. It would look something like:

 

Youkilis

Bay

Drew

Pedroia

Lugo

Ellsbury

Varitek

Lowell

Ortiz

[Cocos Disciples]

^ Sick lineup right there.

[Dutchy]

I don't think Youkilis belongs in the discussion because he's a .379/.549/.672 hitter with runners in scoring position. I want to maximum the chance of hitters being on base in front of him.

[Dutchy]

^ Sick lineup right there.

 

If Lugo goes on a hot streak, we could even make him our 3 or 4 hitter!

[Cocos Disciples]

I don't think Youkilis belongs in the discussion because he's a .379/.549/.672 hitter with runners in scoring position. I want to maximum the chance of hitters being on base in front of him.

 

Agree.

 

If Lugo goes on a hot streak' date=' we could even make him our 3 or 4 hitter![/quote']

 

Let's just go back to 2007 and hit him leadoff. He is fast.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

How am I being a dick exactly?

 

 

Explain how Ellsbury stealing 2nd and taking 3rd on a sac fly is something that you could use to justify him being a leadoff hitter? He's already proven that he can't handle the way pitchers treat him in the leadoff spot, and that the way they treat him in his current spot allows him to get on base more, since his sub-par bat isn't getting molested by pitchers pounding the strike zone.

 

 

Solution: bat him 9th, best of both worlds... he can get the more Ellsbury-friendly pitch treatment, and having guys like Drew and Youk (with their OBPs) follow him up can help move him into scoring position, where his speed then, and only then, becomes a huge asset.

 

 

well for one i didnt understand what you were saying "so" to. i supposed you could have explained like you just did. i dont think saying so leaves anyone with much to say...

 

and what i described is a situation i would love to see from him IN the leadoff hole even though i agree he isnt the same hitter there as he has been lower in the lineup.

 

Ellsbury has shown flashes of what i would call "prototypical leadoff hitter ability" only problem is he only does it in the 7 or 8 hole. I realize that was only one sample but thats what id like to see out of a leadoff guy...oh and what if drews OBP is mostly because of our great lineup and he wouldnt be the same in the leadoff hole?similar to ellsbury thriving at the end of the lineup

[Cocos Disciples]

Drew's OBP is not because of our lineup. Look at his career stats.

[Dutchy]

In case anyone was wondering, the three guys leading the majors in OPS with RISP are Youkilis (1.221), Pujols (1.217) and Bay (1.163). So I think it's pretty safe to say that Youkilis and Bay belong somewhere in the 3-5 hitters of our lineup.

[Dutchy]

well for one i didnt understand what you were saying "so" to. i supposed you could have explained like you just did. i dont think saying so leaves anyone with much to say...

 

and what i described is a situation i would love to see from him IN the leadoff hole even though i agree he isnt the same hitter there as he has been lower in the lineup.

 

Ellsbury has shown flashes of what i would call "prototypical leadoff hitter ability" only problem is he only does it in the 7 or 8 hole. I realize that was only one sample but thats what id like to see out of a leadoff guy...oh and what if drews OBP is mostly because of our great lineup and he wouldnt be the same in the leadoff hole?similar to ellsbury thriving at the end of the lineup

 

I think that Ellsbury is the ideal choice to be our leadoff guy IF he can get his OBP over .370. He's doing fine where he is right now though, so I'd let him buy. Let him get his hits and stolen bases in the bottom of the order and build up his confidence. If he does well enough, promote him to leadoff. If not, he can make stuff happen with his speed at the bottom of the order where there's more of a need for small ball.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

johnny damons career OBP 355 ellsburys...347 how'd damon do as a leadoff hitter for us...since thats all were looking at

[Cocos Disciples]

I think that Ellsbury is the ideal choice to be our leadoff guy IF he can get his OBP over .370.

 

This probably isn't going to happen.

[Dutchy]

This probably isn't going to happen.

 

Call me crazy, but I think it will. He was always a good OBP guy in the minors (.389). When he came up in 2007, his OBP was .394. At the beginning of 2008, it was above .384 through May and then pitchers starting pitching to him differently and he went into a serious slump. I think he's made the adjustment to pitchers now and his OBP has been on the rise lately. It was .320 in April, .346 in May and now .413 in June.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

would you rather have a leadoff guy that goes 0-2 with 3 walks or one that goes 2-4 with one walk, a 2b, and a 3b their obp is the same but the guy with the XBH has a "better" chance to score doesnt he?

 

assuming they actually are on base 3 times each no fielders choices or anything like that

[Dutchy]

would you rather have a leadoff guy that goes 0-2 with 3 walks or one that goes 2-4 with one walk' date=' a 2b, and a 3b their obp is the same but the guy with the XBH has a "better" chance to score doesnt he?[/quote']

 

What are you trying to say, our best power hitter should be our leadoff guy?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

would you rather have a leadoff guy that goes 0-2 with 3 walks or one that goes 2-4 with one walk, a 2b, and a 3b their obp is the same but the guy with the XBH has a "better" chance to score doesnt he?

 

assuming they actually are on base 3 times each no fielders choices or anything like that

What good is it if said player is counting on Nick Green to knock him in?

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

no because power guys dont hit alot of triples im just trying to prove something....obviously that would just be one sample so i should shoot down your opinions because of it right?

[Dutchy]

no because power guys dont hit alot of triples im just trying to prove something....obviously that would just be one sample so i should shoot down your opinions because of it right?

 

I don't get what you're trying to prove though. I'd rather have the the leadoff hitter that's getting into scoring position but neither Ellbury or Pedroia were/are doing that in the leadoff spot.

 

I'm not saying Ellsbury doesn't belong in the leadoff spot, I just think he needs to get his OBP up in order to hit there. Ellsbury had a .332 OBP in the leadoff spot this year. Pedroia's is barely above .300 in that spot.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

im saying that drew is not the answer and i dont understand why he ever would be...the important thing is that we are winning, right? why switch anything