Lowell's Hip "Isn't Any Better"

[a700hitter]

If the Sox had played their cards differently (note I didn't say "right"), they probably could have signed him to a deal when the owners met with him. He stated his demands at that point and the owners could have agreed and had a press conference. The Red Sox owners had the access at that point. They could have closed the deal. Sales 101.

[Dojji]

So, Lowell of the .600 OPS in June and Ortiz of the .200 BA says we don't need a middle of the order bat?

 

Makes sense.

 

Best record in the American League despite a highly competitive division and multiple West Coast swings agrees.

[TheKilo]

Best record in the American League despite a highly competitive division and multiple West Coast swings agrees.

 

To be fair the schedule for the last month and a half has been pretty easy.

 

Look at August, September and tell me how confident you feel with a lineup that has Nick Green, Julio Lugo, Jed Lowrie, and Mark Kotsay in it.

[jacksonianmarch]

They certainly could have. Hell, Tex had a better offer than what NY offered, but he wanted to go to a winner. He most certainly would have gone to Boston. What player has the executives of a team over his house to have a meeting with a team he isnt serious with? Thats ridiculous. Tex wanted big money and a chance to win. Once the Halos dropped out, the only teams left with those two qualities were NY and Boston. He stated his demands to Boston, they declined because they didnt think the yankees were in on it. And for a mere 1.125 mil more per yr, the yankees stole him from the Sox grasp.

[Dojji]

If the Sox had played their cards differently (note I didn't say "right")' date=' they probably could have signed him to a deal when the owners met with him. He stated his demands at that point and the owners could have agreed and had a press conference. The Red Sox owners had the access at that point. They could have closed the deal. Sales 101.[/quote']

 

There are two parties in a negotiation like this. Lucky and Theo, and Boras and Teixeira.

 

We don't know what went down at that meeting. All we know is after that meeting that it was clear that Boston was not going to pursue Teixeira at all costs. it's entirely possible that was Teixeira's doing. i don't think you can assume that the FO was the party who broke those talks off unless there's some evidence.

[jacksonianmarch]

Best record in the American League despite a highly competitive division and multiple West Coast swings agrees.

 

record doesnt help you win in the playoffs. Over the last 7 seasons, only 2 teams with the best win % in the AL made it to the world series (NYY 2003, CWS 2005), and only one of them won it (CWS 2005). It isnt about your current record. It is about how strong your team is from top to bottom.

[Dojji]

To be fair the schedule for the last month and a half has been pretty easy.

 

Look at August, September and tell me how confident you feel with a lineup that has Nick Green, Julio Lugo, Jed Lowrie, and Mark Kotsay in it.

 

I'm all for replacing Lugo and Kotsay with better players. And if Lowell goes down I'm all for making a trade for a good replacement. That doesn't really have much to do with Teixeira.

 

Piling up depth behind Lowell in the event of his injury is reasonable. That's probably why Travis Denker is in Pawtucket for example. Replacing him with a mammoth contract and selling low on him? Not so much. If nothing else, that's a move which would have some consequences when we go after FA's in the future as it doesn't exactly demonstrate a lot of respect for the players and their desires.

 

Show me one time in the last 5 years where a team deliberately traded away a veteran player in order to sign a big name FA. It just doesn't happen very often. Even the Sheffield thing, probably the closest to it, was the result of a trade.

[Paradisecity]

I feel like this is a case of person saying something, person being questioned about something, person becoming more defensive and thus more adamant about their opinion of something, person realizing they made a mistake but refusing to admit to it because they were more adamant previouly, and therefore becoming even more opinionated about something.

 

For clarification purposes, "person" does not refer to Mark Teixeira, Scott Boras, Theo Epstein, John Henry, Mike Lowell or Jacksonianmarch.

[Dojji]

record doesnt help you win in the playoffs. Over the last 7 seasons' date=' only 2 teams with the best win % in the AL made it to the world series (NYY 2003, CWS 2005), and only one of them won it (CWS 2005). It isnt about your current record. It is about how strong your team is from top to bottom.[/quote']

 

2007 Red Sox say hi. But I bet you were trying to shut that one out of your memory.

[a700hitter]

There are two parties in a negotiation like this. Lucky and Theo, and Boras and Teixeira.

 

We don't know what went down at that meeting. All we know is after that meeting that it was clear that Boston was not going to pursue Teixeira at all costs. it's entirely possible that was Teixeira's doing. i don't think you can assume that the FO was the party who broke those talks off unless there's some evidence.

They had access. They had the advantage over any other team at that point. They ask what he wants. He gives a proposal. At that point, the owners could have reached accross the table and said "it's a deal." I doubt he recoils at that point. They didn't like his asking price and walked away from the table hoping the price would come down. It didn't. They had the opportunity to sign him, but passed on it. It's just nonsense to continue with this argument that he was not going to sign with the Sox at any price. He named his price with the owners in the room. They walked away.

[Dojji]

You don't play that kind of game with the negotiations if you don't think you can deal with the worst case scenario. In this case, the worst case scenario happened -- Teixeira in pinstripes. We seem to have dealt with it pretty well, all things considered.

 

With Drew, Bay and Youkilis all producing, the need for a bat of Teixeira's caliber isn't that great. anything Ortiz and Lowell can add only drives the point further. I think we might be in trouble if Lowell is gone for the entire rest of the season, but we can pick up a 1B in trade easily enough in that event. They're not that hard to come by. And anyway, Lowell was only counted on to be, at best, our 4th best power hitter this year so I don't think we're as desperate for middle of the order power as you guys are making it sound.

[BoSox21]

2007 Red Sox say hi. But I bet you were trying to shut that one out of your memory.

 

srsly

[jacksonianmarch]

2007 Red Sox say hi. But I bet you were trying to shut that one out of your memory.

 

Cleveland had home field through the playoffs, so they were considered to have the best record in the AL

[schillingouttheks]

Cleveland had home field through the playoffs' date=' so they were considered to have the best record in the AL[/quote']

 

... no, they didn't. I know this because I was at Game 7 of the ALCS.

[Dojji]

So what kind of prospect return do you think the Pirates would take for Adam LaRoche? He should be available for a decent price as he's making a lot of money for a Pittsburgh guy ($7M), and he's a half decent first baseman. Put LaRoche at first, Youks at third and we have a solution if Lowell goes down.

 

I imagine the Pirates could consider Michael Bowden fair compensation for LaRoche's services. Since I think laRoche has one year of arbitration control after this one, I might do that.

[jacksonianmarch]

... no' date=' they didn't. I know this because I was at Game 7 of the ALCS.[/quote']

 

I thought they did. Guess not. My bad, add the sox to that list. Still, 3/7 isnt good odds. It is just a testament to the fact that the best regular season team doesnt equate to the best playoff team. And its June for chrissakes, the standings are semi-irrelevant

[Dojji]

3/7 in an 4 team pool is very good odds. Plenty of room for something to go wrong of course, but it's way better than average odds considering you're dealing with at least 2 of the 3 other best teams in the league.

[Spudboy]

If the Sox had played their cards differently (note I didn't say "right")' date=' they probably could have signed him to a deal when the owners met with him. He stated his demands at that point and the owners could have agreed and had a press conference. The Red Sox owners had the access at that point. They could have closed the deal. Sales 101.[/quote']

 

Excellent point. But I think Tex probably wanted to be in N.Y. all along and was just using the Sox as a pawn. This is why I believe Tex to be a disingenuous puke.

 

Still, I would like to have seen him at 1st for the Sox.

[CrespoBlows]

Nick Johnson for MDC.

 

I'm being optimistic. Throw in a prospect. Just get the deal done.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Nick Johnson for MDC.

 

I'm being optimistic. Throw in a prospect. Just get the deal done.

No.

[Spudboy]

Nick Johnson for MDC.

 

I'm being optimistic. Throw in a prospect. Just get the deal done.

 

Why? Is he such an upgrade from Kotsay? He's a career .273 hitter, has played 100+ games in a season only 2 out of 8 MLB seasons, has never hit more than 23 HR, and is pretty average as a 1st baseman.

 

I say wait. Let's see how things go for the next month. Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

And if this were to happen, why is it MDC PLUS a prospect? Wouldn't MDC alone be enough?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Why? Is he such an upgrade from Kotsay? He's a career .273 hitter, has played 100+ games in a season only 2 out of 8 MLB seasons, has never hit more than 23 HR, and is pretty average as a 1st baseman.

 

I say wait. Let's see how things go for the next month. Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

And if this were to happen, why is it MDC PLUS a prospect? Wouldn't MDC alone be enough?

The prospect alone is enough. MDC for Johnson is asinine.

[Dojji]

Why? Is he such an upgrade from Kotsay? He's a career .273 hitter, has played 100+ games in a season only 2 out of 8 MLB seasons, has never hit more than 23 HR, and is pretty average as a 1st baseman.

 

I say wait. Let's see how things go for the next month. Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

And if this were to happen, why is it MDC PLUS a prospect? Wouldn't MDC alone be enough?

 

He also maintains an OBP at or around .400 and hits for adequate power for a first baseman. (career OBP is .399, which is at the elite level as far as OBP goes)

 

Johnson doesn't score well on the old metrics, but scores better on the newer ones. such as his .853 OPS and 125 career OPS+

 

I'd rather go for Adam LaRoche but there isn't much to choose between him and Johnson and LaRoche has fewer health question marks, but both of their teams have enough holes for me to think that those guys are available for the right price.

[Dojji]

The prospect alone is enough. MDC for Johnson is asinine.

 

Disagree very strongly. Johnson has his faults, but he's an above average first baseman. I actually think MDC for Johnson is a bad deal for Washington. And I'm a guy who really likes Delcarmen and values what he brings as a durable, relatively consistent RHRP

[Dipre]

So what kind of prospect return do you think the Pirates would take for Adam LaRoche? He should be available for a decent price as he's making a lot of money for a Pittsburgh guy ($7M), and he's a half decent first baseman. Put LaRoche at first, Youks at third and we have a solution if Lowell goes down.

 

I imagine the Pirates could consider Michael Bowden fair compensation for LaRoche's services. Since I think laRoche has one year of arbitration control after this one, I might do that.

 

Bowden for LaRoche?

 

Are you serious,sir?

 

"Fair" compensation?

 

They'd be robbing us blind!

 

LaRoche is a low tier first baseman with limited offensive potential and suspect defense.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

That is terrible.

 

 

Josh Beckett, Mike Bowden, Jason Bay for LaRoche, Ross Ohlendorf, and John Grabow. World Series.

[Dipre]

That is terrible.

 

 

Josh Beckett, Mike Bowden, Jason Bay for LaRoche, Ross Ohlendorf, and John Grabow. World Series.

 

That trade would secure Epstein's bid for exec of the year.

[Dojji]

Bowden for LaRoche?

 

Are you serious,sir?

 

"Fair" compensation?

 

They'd be robbing us blind!

 

LaRoche is a low tier first baseman with limited offensive potential and suspect defense.

 

 

You're overselling the point. Over the last 4 years LaRoche has actually been consistently solid. He's not Mark Teixeira, but then, who is? He is, however, likely to be available for trade and stands a good chance of being more useful than Kotsay. He's also at about the same level of production as a healthy Mike Lowell.

 

If that's the perception of LaRoche, then he's seriously underrated. Adam LaRoche is exactly the kind of 1B you get in the middle of the season if you happen to need one. Only, he's actually that guy, rather than the 5-10 people around the league that you could get hoping they're that guy like Kevin Millar or Chris Shelton. He's a legitimate middle of the order bat, gets on base reasonably well, and he'll give you somewhere between 20 and 30 HR's. And he'd probably be good for more than his traditional 90 RBI's if he ever played for a team that actually got on base sometimes.

 

As for Bowden being highway robbery in trade... ha. Talk about overvaluing prospects. Until he shows what he's got over an extended stay in the majors, he's probably worth less than a battle-tested Delcarmen.

 

I'm very high on Bowden myself, but he has proven exactly nothing and I don't think the team would hesitate to deal him for a piece that would help them win now and next year. And LaRoche looks like a legitimate possibility to be that guy.

[Dipre]

You're overselling the point. Over the last 4 years LaRoche has actually been consistently solid. He's not Mark Teixeira, but then, who is? He is, however, likely to be available for trade and stands a good chance of being more useful than Kotsay. He's also at about the same level of production as a healthy Mike Lowell.

 

If that's the perception of LaRoche, then he's seriously underrated. Adam LaRoche is exactly the kind of 1B you get in the middle of the season if you happen to need one. Only, he's actually that guy, rather than the 5-10 people around the league that you could get hoping they're that guy like Kevin Millar or Chris Shelton. He's a legitimate middle of the order bat, gets on base reasonably well, and he'll give you somewhere between 20 and 30 HR's. And he'd probably be good for more than his traditional 90 RBI's if he ever played for a team that actually got on base sometimes.

 

As for Bowden being highway robbery in trade... ha. Talk about overvaluing prospects. Until he shows what he's got over an extended stay in the majors, he's probably worth less than a battle-tested Delcarmen.

 

I'm very high on Bowden myself, but he has proven exactly nothing and I don't think the team would hesitate to deal him for a piece that would help them win now and next year. And LaRoche looks like a legitimate possibility to be that guy.

 

LaRoche is a lower tier first baseman who makes a good amount of money.

 

Bowden is an upper tier pitching prospect.

 

It simply doesn't add up.

[Dojji]

LaRoche is a lower tier first baseman who makes a good amount of money.

 

Bowden is an upper tier pitching prospect.

 

It simply doesn't add up.

 

You're right, but who else do you think the Pirates would ask for in addition to Bowden?

 

Also, LaRoche is mid-teir at worst. Lower tier is Ryan Garko, Mike Jacobs, and Mike Sweeney. I could list 10 starting first basemen that are worse than LaRoche right now.