Lowell's Hip "Isn't Any Better"

[jacksonianmarch]

Teixeira is not an above average player Dojji. Try to defend all you want, but Tex is an elite level player and you know it. Your rose colored glasses make it hard to see that sometimes. He would have been a substantial improvement over Lowell in both health, defense and offense.

 

Now in terms of going forward, I think a move was going to be needed even if he proclaimed himself chipper and healthy as his production has taken a nosedive. His OPS per month is as follows:

 

April .912 OPS

May .816OPS

June .607OPS

 

Not only that, but he isnt walking and his OPS is driven mostly by his power, which was incredibly inflated after the first month and wasnt sustainable based upon his prior career norms. Add to that the fact that he is a statue at 3rd and you have a guy who is detracting from your ballclub. Thing is, if Papi hadnt gotten hot, the fanbase would be all over Lowell right now. But winning takes away that sense of urgency for now. That being said, a lineup with 2 of the trio of Green, Lugo, and Lowrie in it for the long haul would be fricking great from where I am sitting.

[yankeessuck013]

Derosa

[jacksonianmarch]

Exactly who I think the sox will target. The price is high right now and there are a few teams who are actually considering him as a middle of the order bat. If they wish to pay the middle of the order premium on talent, then the sox wont get him. If not and the sox want to deal a guy like Doubront or a few further down the road talents, then they certainly can get him. And I would hate to see him in Boston. He reminds me of a better Grafanino and DeRosa always seems to hit us well

[Dojji]

Derosa

 

Good idea. Really good idea. I wouldn't mind at all if this is what the Sox do. But if you look at the numbers there really isn't much to choose between DeRosa and Teahen. DeRosa does offer more flexibility and a bit more power, but I think I'd take Teahen instead if only because Teahen provides a platoon advantage that makes it easier to convince a guy who's used to playing every game why he should be sitting on the bench.

 

Jacko: DeRosa a middle of the order bat? Really? I love him as a bench bat but the guy has 20 HR's just once in his career. I just don't see DeRosa continuing this power tear of his much longer. This besides the fact that DeRosa is actually older than Lowell. If the price is that high on DeRosa, I'd definitely rather see the Sox go after Teahen.

 

Or if they really want to blow the doors down, they could go ahead and trade with the Mariners for Adrian Beltre. his defense and sporadic power would be worth a goodly price, and the Mariners probably wouldn't mind clearing his contract.

[TheKilo]

Teixeira is not an above average player Dojji. Try to defend all you want, but Tex is an elite level player and you know it. Your rose colored glasses make it hard to see that sometimes. He would have been a substantial improvement over Lowell in both health, defense and offense.

 

Now in terms of going forward, I think a move was going to be needed even if he proclaimed himself chipper and healthy as his production has taken a nosedive. His OPS per month is as follows:

 

April .912 OPS

May .816OPS

June .607OPS

 

Not only that, but he isnt walking and his OPS is driven mostly by his power, which was incredibly inflated after the first month and wasnt sustainable based upon his prior career norms. Add to that the fact that he is a statue at 3rd and you have a guy who is detracting from your ballclub. Thing is, if Papi hadnt gotten hot, the fanbase would be all over Lowell right now. But winning takes away that sense of urgency for now. That being said, a lineup with 2 of the trio of Green, Lugo, and Lowrie in it for the long haul would be fricking great from where I am sitting.

 

Excellent post, especially the bolded parts.

[TheKilo]

Because that was my entire argument at any point in the discussion. I know it's the simple path (read: intellectually lazy path) to harp on the weakest part of someone's argument, but Lowell being a competent 3B was only a part of the reason I was content not to get Teixeira. You don't spend that much team resources swapping out an above average player for another above average player.

 

Having a top prospect 1B close to the big leagues was another part, i notice you tried to skewer me on that as if it was my whole argument too.

 

Also, i don't think any but the blindest, most delusionally partisan fans on this forum knew that beating the Yankees out for a guy they want at a position they need was a longshot, although a lot of us hoped differently, and hoped very loudly. It all combined to a realization that I'd better get over Teixeira before I even started.

 

What was your argument in total for not wanting Teixeira? From my vantage point, it was the following:

 

1. Lars is almost MLB-ready and will be a large contributor to the team.

2. Mike Lowell is an above average player and replacing him with Teixeira does little for the team.

3. Mrs. Teixeira hated Boston so they had no chance to sign him.

4. The Yankees would always offer more money than the Red Sox and the Sox would never get the last offer anyways.

5. The Yankees had a position of need and were targeting Teixeira feverishly.

 

 

Did I miss anything?

[Dipre]

Or if they really want to blow the doors down, they could go ahead and trade with the Mariners for Adrian Beltre. his defense and sporadic power would be worth a goodly price, and the Mariners probably wouldn't mind clearing his contract.

 

 

Beltre would hit like hitting was about to go out of style if he was brought here.

 

Out of Safeco+Into Fenway+ Red Sox lineup+ Contract Year=.900+ OPS.

[TheKilo]

Beltre is also having surgery for bone spurs, so that's that.

 

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/story/789767.html

[Dojji]

What was your argument in total for not wanting Teixeira? From my vantage point, it was the following:

 

1. Lars is almost MLB-ready and will be a large contributor to the team.

2. Mike Lowell is an above average player and replacing him with Teixeira does little for the team.

3. Mrs. Teixeira hated Boston so they had no chance to sign him.

4. The Yankees would always offer more money than the Red Sox and the Sox would never get the last offer anyways.

5. The Yankees had a position of need and were targeting Teixeira feverishly.

 

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Well I never did the Mrs. Teixeira thing. I don't tend to pay attention to that stuff, But the rest of it is pretty accurate. i felt that blunted the value of acquiring a guy like Teixeira to the point that he wasn't worth the money. Frankly I still feel that way. I just didn't want the guy.

 

Beltre is also having surgery for bone spurs, so that's that.

 

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/story/789767.html

 

 

Pity. Woulda been a good move.

 

I think the best value as a short term fill-in guy is still Teahen. DeRosa is going to go to a contending team that needs a starter somewhere I think, unless the Yankees go after him to shore up their situation with Alex Rodruiguez. And we have some injury issues looming in right field, trying to look forward, and Teahen can help us with that too.

[Paradisecity]

How is Lars Anderson doing these days?

[Dipre]

Beltre is also having surgery for bone spurs, so that's that.

 

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/story/789767.html

 

It's his contract year, i doubt he gets the surgery until the off-season.

[jacksonianmarch]

Why the love for Teahan and Beltre

 

Adrian Beltre had 3 seasons in his career where he put up an .800+OPS. One of them was his ridiculous contract yr. The other two were in 2000 and 2007. He isnt very patient. He's not a ridiculous power guy as he seems to sit in the mid 20s in terms of homers. He doesnt hit for average. What is with the love affair with him? He sounds like a worse Mike Lowell at a bigger cost.

 

Mark Teahan? Really? He doesnt hit for average. He never developed power. He isnt a good defender. He doesnt have speed. He isnt very patient. There is nothing about him that screams sox 3b.

 

Regardless, the fact that these guys are being brought up as replacements shows how wrong you were. Tex>>>>anything the sox have at 3b both internally and as trade options. The money argument isnt worth it because they would have saved 10+ mil by dealing Lowell and they were willing to belly up to the table at 170 mil. Plus, they would have increased the value of Youkilis, who really isnt a middle of the order power hitter by moving him to 3b and they would have gotten a franchise 1b in his prime in his 20s.

[Dipre]

Lol Beltre plays at Safeco.

 

 

What, you didn't know ballparks influence power numbers?

[Dojji]

Mark Teahan? Really? He doesnt hit for average. He never developed power. He isnt a good defender. He doesnt have speed. He isnt very patient. There is nothing about him that screams sox 3b.

 

You're selling Teahen just a bit short, there. He's actually a pretty decent defender at third, and provides good defense and a very good arm as a corner outfielder. Also, other than the one debacle year in 2007 where they kept jerking him around all over the field to make room for Alex Gordon and Jose Guillen, Teahen is not a disaster with the bat and has maintained a good OBP with a bit of base stealing ability. I see Teahen as a very versatile and useful roleplayer and a guy you'd bring in to shore up Lowell rather than replace him, which isn't happening for the life of Lowell's contract at this point.

[Dipre]

You're selling Teahen just a bit short' date=' there. He's actually a pretty decent defender at third, and provides good defense and a very good arm as a corner outfielder. Also, other than the one debacle year in 2007 where they kept jerking him around all over the field to make room for Alex Gordon and Jose Guillen, Teahen is not a disaster with the bat and has maintained a good OBP with a bit of base stealing ability. I see Teahen as a very versatile and useful roleplayer and a guy you'd bring in to shore up Lowell rather than replace him, which isn't happening for the life of Lowell's contract at this point.[/quote']

 

This line of thinking would make more sense if Lowrie weren't coming back.

 

We can't afford a roster spot on a personal caddy for Lowell, since our infield is already crowded as it is.

 

That is, unless, the Sox decided to eat ALL of Lugo's contract or found some way to ship him to Kansas and provide all of us with a neverending dose of the lulz.

[a700hitter]

You're selling Teahen just a bit short' date=' there. He's actually a pretty decent defender at third, and provides good defense and a very good arm as a corner outfielder. Also, other than the one debacle year in 2007 where they kept jerking him around all over the field to make room for Alex Gordon and Jose Guillen, Teahen is not a disaster with the bat and has maintained a good OBP with a bit of base stealing ability. I see Teahen as a very versatile and useful roleplayer and a guy you'd bring in to shore up Lowell rather than replace him, which isn't happening for the life of Lowell's contract at this point.[/quote']

Teahen is a terrible outfielder. . . Just terrible.

[Dojji]

I was operating under the assumption that it was a given that Lugo would go when Lowrie returned. either way, I really think Teahen could replace Kotsay on the roster and we'd be a stronger team for ut.

[Dojji]

Teahen is a terrible outfielder. . . Just terrible.

 

Anything to back that up or is it just one of those things where if I call on it you fall back on calling something opinion though it was originally stated as fact?

[jacksonianmarch]

I doubt Lugo is going anywhere as he gives you insurance should Lowell go down for the count. I highly doubt the sox would give up on him right away unless they got the right deal prior to his release

[TheKilo]

Man, if Jed Lowrie is our starting 3B the rest of the way that's an awfully depressing thought.

[a700hitter]

Anything to back that up or is it just one of those things where if I call on it you fall back on calling something opinion though it was originally stated as fact?

Watching him repeatedly break in for balls that go over his head or stand like a statue on balls in front of him that he plays on a bounce. When you see things like that, you don't need numbers to confirm that he sucks as an outfielder. The guy is an infielder.

[TheKilo]

Well I never did the Mrs. Teixeira thing. I don't tend to pay attention to that stuff' date=' But the rest of it is pretty accurate. i felt that blunted the value of acquiring a guy like Teixeira to the point that he wasn't worth the money. Frankly I still feel that way. I just didn't want the guy.[/quote']

 

How can you rationally say Mark Teixeira isn't worth the money?

 

You don't think he's performing like a $20 million player should?

[jacksonianmarch]

Tex is on pace for 45 homeruns, 130RBI and an OPS of .960 even when you consider he slumped horribly for half the current season. Then consider his defense, which has been absolutely 100% incredible. Watching him play first instead of Giambi has been a pleasure. His D has saved the infield of so many errors and hits it isnt even funny.

[a700hitter]

Anything to back that up or is it just one of those things where if I call on it you fall back on calling something opinion though it was originally stated as fact?

Calling someone terrible is an opinion even if the opinion is supported by statistics, so what is it that you are looking for? Get Extra Innings ... watch the guy play the OF and then tell me your opinion.

[Spudboy]

I doubt Lugo is going anywhere as he gives you insurance should Lowell go down for the count. I highly doubt the sox would give up on him right away unless they got the right deal prior to his release

 

I agree with Doc here. Lugo will be around probably until the trade deadline, and possibly for the rest of the season. Why?They owe him a s*** load and a half of money. He's shown some production at the plate since his return from surgery. His range SHOULD improve as his knee mends and the quads get stronger. And, with a possible Lowell - less lineup looming, they need the infield depth. We no longer have the luxury of Alex Cora on the bench. As much as we disparage Lugo ( in most cases justifiably) he does have some value to this team. Certainly more than he would seem to garner in a trade.

 

It will be interesting to see what roster move the Sox make when Lowrie returns. I still see Bard back in Pawtucket if a trade is not made.

[Paradisecity]

Dojji- don't you say that Drew is worth his contract? How can you argue that Drew is worth 14M and Tex not worth 20M? is it the better defense, the higher OBP, OPS, the tripling of homerun production? Which part isn't worth the extra 6M?

[Dojji]

Dojji- don't you say that Drew is worth his contract? How can you argue that Drew is worth 14M and Tex not worth 20M? is it the better defense' date=' the higher OBP, OPS, the tripling of homerun production? Which part isn't worth the extra 6M?[/quote']

 

the difference is that Drew filled a need at the time. We needed a right fielder, needed another lefthanded hitter, and Drew fit our philosophy very well and has done a great job -- when healthy.

 

You can say we "needed" a middle of the order bat, but the results so far say otherwise. That makes Teixeira a luxury, not a need, and one that we'd have to create a hole for him to fill..

 

That changes if Lowell can't finish the season, of course, but so far I just don't see where the need for Teixeira is that desperate. I think theo called it right by putting a ceiling on the guy and walking away when Teixeira wanted more.

[BoSox21]

the difference is that Drew filled a need at the time. We needed a right fielder, needed another lefthanded hitter, and Drew fit our philosophy very well and has done a great job -- when healthy.

 

You can say we "needed" a middle of the order bat, but the results so far say otherwise. That makes Teixeira a luxury, not a need, and one that we'd have to create a hole for him to fill..

 

That changes if Lowell can't finish the season, of course, but so far I just don't see where the need for Teixeira is that desperate. I think theo called it right by putting a ceiling on the guy and walking away when Teixeira wanted more.

 

the smart money was on Lowell experiencing difficulties relating to his hip therefore the smart money was on a need for a middle of the order bat developing as the season went on. the FO doesnt seem to offer up $160 mil to luxuries

[Dojji]

the smart money was on Lowell experiencing difficulties relating to his hip therefore the smart money was on a need for a middle of the order bat developing as the season went on. the FO doesnt seem to offer up $160 mil to luxuries

 

And the "smart money" was on the Yankees breaking the bank for Teixeira too. where are we going with this again? Also, where were the Sox aggressively pursuing Plan B if the need was that likely? You think the Sox would go toe to toe with the Yankees for a position of need and not prepare for failure?

 

When was the last time the Red Sox and yankees both wanted a guy enough to bid aggressively for him and the Sox got him? Open bidding only, please. I don't think you can just assume that if the sox spent just a little more, Teixeira would be here rather than there.

[TheKilo]

So, Lowell of the .600 OPS in June and Ortiz of the .200 BA says we don't need a middle of the order bat?

 

Makes sense.