2009 Patriots Off-Season Thread

[mtbykr]

With the QB market the way it is...and some teams draft history, it's easy to see Cassel's stock go up. Just a few high draft picks I can think of:

 

Heath Shuler - Redskins 1994

Ryan Leaf - Chargers 1998

Akili Smith - Bengals 1999

Tim Couch - Browns 1999

Cade Mcnown- Bear 1999

Jim Druckenmiller - 49ers 1997

Rick Mirer - Seahawks 1993

Patrick Ramsey - Redskins 2002

Kyle Boller - Ravens 2003

Joey Harrington - Lions 2002

 

Leinart and Young seem to be heading down the path as well.

 

 

Over the years teams have given up high draft picks for QB's that they hope can make the transition to the NFL...it's not crazy to think a team would give up the same thing or more for a guy like Cassel who has played in the NFL....especially with the draft looking the way it does.

[mtbykr]

I dunno whether he's worth 2 firsts, but he's probably a better gamble than your average first rounder for a roster spot, which is a good indication (IMHO) that he's worth at least one.

 

Also bear in mind that the team Cassel was leading wasn't exactly the usual Patriots juggernaut. In fact there were a couple games where all we had was the passing game and BJGE. When you're that two dimensional, a win against any NFL team is a good win.

 

If they'd had the same level of performance from the other Patriots that we'd had in the 16-0 season cassel could easily have gone 12-4 or even 13-3. The defense was a big letdown in some key games, especially against the Colts. The "can't beat a good team" thing wasn't just Cassel in other words.

 

You can make the argument that they were a 'dropped TD pass by Gafney against the colts' and a '3rd and long stop in OT against the Jets' away from going 12-4 / 13-3.

[TheKilo]

Also bear in mind that the team Cassel was leading wasn't exactly the usual Patriots juggernaut. In fact there were a couple games where all we had was the passing game and BJGE. When you're that two dimensional, a win against any NFL team is a good win.

 

 

FYI, most teams try to be two dimensional with their offense.

 

But I'm not giving Cassel any credit whatsoever when he has All-Pros all along his O-Line and Welker and Moss to throw to...sorry.

 

If they'd had the same level of performance from the other Patriots that we'd had in the 16-0 season cassel could easily have gone 12-4 or even 13-3. The defense was a big letdown in some key games, especially against the Colts. The "can't beat a good team" thing wasn't just Cassel in other words.

 

I thought your defense played awfully well against the Colts. it was your offense that let you down.

 

Why does Cassel get all the credit when the team wins and none of the blame when they lose?

 

He played like crap against Miami, Pittsburgh, and San Diego. IMO the Pats had ONE good win on their schedule all year, and that was Arizona...and that's only because of Arizona's playoff run.

 

He was good against crap teams, bad against good teams, and average against average teams. He s an average NFL QB. Nothing more, nothing less.

[TheKilo]

With the QB market the way it is...and some teams draft history, it's easy to see Cassel's stock go up. Just a few high draft picks I can think of:

 

Heath Shuler - Redskins 1994

Ryan Leaf - Chargers 1998

Akili Smith - Bengals 1999

Tim Couch - Browns 1999

Cade Mcnown- Bear 1999

Jim Druckenmiller - 49ers 1997

Rick Mirer - Seahawks 1993

Patrick Ramsey - Redskins 2002

Kyle Boller - Ravens 2003

Joey Harrington - Lions 2002

 

Leinart and Young seem to be heading down the path as well.

 

 

Over the years teams have given up high draft picks for QB's that they hope can make the transition to the NFL...it's not crazy to think a team would give up the same thing or more for a guy like Cassel who has played in the NFL....especially with the draft looking the way it does.

 

All of these guys accomplished more in college than Cassel did and they didn't have the benefit of throwing to Moss and Welker.

 

The teams they were drafted to were terrible (how else would they be picking so high)?

 

Sorry, not buying it. This Pats offense is loaded with weapons, making Cassel's entrance into the league 100x easier than these guys.

[TheKilo]

You can make the argument that they were a 'dropped TD pass by Gafney against the colts' and a '3rd and long stop in OT against the Jets' away from going 12-4 / 13-3.

 

And what if Cassel doesn't play like crap against San Diego, Miami, and Pittsburgh? We can do this all day, it is a fruitless exercise.

[mtbykr]

And what if Cassel doesn't play like crap against San Diego' date=' Miami, and Pittsburgh? We can do this all day, it is a fruitless exercise.[/quote']

 

We gave up 30,38, and 33 in those games....tough to win giving up that much no matter what your QB does. My point was that Cassel played well enough to win those games and other parts of the team let the team down....the pats could have easily been 13-3. The simple fact remains that the teams in search of a QB need to decide on Cassel or a draft pick. Personally I would take my chances with Cassel over Stafford or Sanchez, what would you guys do if you were a GM right now?

[Keeper]

I would also take Cassel over an unproven rookie. A big part of his success was the program he was in and the players surrounding him, but you can't ******** your way through an entire NFL season.

[mtbykr]

Here's a breakdown of potential teams in need of a QB this off-season:

 

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/02/national-football-post-diner-news-93/

 

THE OBVIOUS TEAMS

 

DETROIT LIONS — The Lions are in the best position to make this decision. As they evaluate college quarterbacks, they can measure how Cassel compares to the quarterbacks in the draft. They can part with their second first-round pick, 20th overall, and feel like they’ve gotten two blue chip players in the first round. It will cost more than the 20th pick overall, but for the Lions, they must think quality over quantity, and getting two quality players is much better than four good players, especially if one of the quality players is a quarterback. There is a deal here — but first things first. Someone in the Lions’ building must make the determination which player is better, Matthew Stafford, Mark Sanchez or Cassel.

MINNESOTA VIKINGS — This team, as much as any in the league, needs one more piece to make a significant difference in its roster. Finding a legitimate quarterback was the first order of business when head coach Brad Childress took over, but he has failed so far. With a talented quarterback, the Vikings go from being contenders in the NFC North to Super Bowl contenders. They currently have the 22nd pick in the draft. They could part with that and another second rounder and would be close enough to make a deal. I’m not sure that will be enough to satisfy the Patriots, but they will be in the ballpark. The Vikings have the cap room, the willingness to make a trade (as evidenced by their deal last year to acquire Jared Allen) and a huge need. I would make them the early frontrunners. Childress is on the hot seat, and fixing the quarterback position might help him avoid more heat.

 

TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS — After seven years of Jon Gruden moving and changing quarterbacks and getting older at the position, the Bucs are now desperate to fix things. They have a huge need and a ton of cap room. They have a mid-level first-round pick (19th overall), a young head coach and a young defense. The time is right to make a bold move and find a long-term answer at quarterback. Matt Ryan (Atlanta) and Drew Brees (New Orleans) are fixtures in the NFC South. The Bucs need to find a fixture, too, and right now they don’t an answer.

 

SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS – Who is the 49ers’ quarterback? Are they going to go back to Alex Smith or do they really think Shaun Hill is the answer? The 49ers have to address the quarterback position and find a long-term answer. They have cap room, they have the right pick (10th overall in the first round) and they have a need. However, I’m not sure anyone in the 49ers building is going to have the fortitude and the will to make this happen. They will convince themselves that Hill can lead the team. But they need to understand that they won all those championships because of the quarterbacks. Maybe the late, great Bill Walsh’s voice will be heard somewhere in the building, reminding the 49ers what made them great.

 

ST. LOUIS RAMS — Someone in the building gave Marc Bulger a huge contract, and I’m sure that person is gone. But new coach Steve Spagnuolo and new GM Billy Devaney must fix this position before they can think about turning around the team. Bulger might have the money, but he doesn’t solve the long-term problem. The Rams are like the Lions — they have to make their determination of Cassel as he compares to college players. Unlike the Lions, the Rams just have their own high pick, and I doubt they would be willing to make that move. I suspect the Rams will not be strong players in the Cassel market.

 

CHICAGO BEARS — At some point, the Bears will have to address their quarterback situation. There were times last season when Kyle Orton appeared to have a good handle on things, but after sustaining an ankle injury, he was not the same productive player he was earlier in the year. The Bears need a marquee player on offense, someone they can build around and make all the other pieces fit. They need someone they do not have to manage but who can run a complete offense. The need is there, but I doubt the Bears will be serious players. They have the 18th pick in the first round, but they hate to part with picks.

 

NEW YORK JETS — Jet fans can forget about Brett Favre coming back. It doesn’t look good, or even make sense, for the long- term future of the team. The Jets are in a mess at quarterback, not because they made the Favre trade but because they picked a pass-catching tight end at the bottom of the first round instead of Chad Henne, the quarterback from Michigan who went to Miami. I like Dusty Keller as a player, but they needed a quarterback then and they need one now. However, if you ask anyone inside the building, they all seem to be smoking the Brett Ratliff great-player pipe. Let us face it, even though Eric Mangini is gone as head coach, the Pats and Jets are not doing any deals. The Jets have the 17th pick in the first round but they’re going to be tight getting under the cap, and they still have to sign running back Leon Washington. This looks like a good idea on paper, but it probably won’t happen.

 

KANSAS CITY CHIEFS — The Chiefs have all the elements in place to make a deal for Cassel: new offensive-minded coach, new GM (who gets along with the Patriots) and a very high pick. So why won’t it happen? Well, for one, the Chiefs are high on Tyler Thigpen, who played well at times last season. They also might not want to give up the third pick of the NFL draft for a player they may feel is not much better than the one currently on their roster. The Chiefs will hold on to their picks and will be reluctant to part with any of them. GM Scott Pioli knows Cassel as well as anyone and knows what he brings to the table and how he is different from Thigpen, who I’m sure he knows well by now.

 

SLEEPERS

 

WASHINGTON REDSKINS — The ‘Skins are going to live and die with their current quarterback, Jason Campbell, and have put the word out that they will not be players in the free-agent market. However, they will need to consider making this move and should do their homework before they dismiss the notion of a trade. Trust me on this, a year from now the ‘Skins will be looking for a quarterback.

 

CAROLINA PANTHERS — They have too many other issues to fix and don’t have a first-round pick, but they have a huge need. They can’t count on Jake Delhomme much longer.

 

This is going to be very interesting to watch, but one thing all these teams must do is decide how Cassel compares with the draft class at quarterback. It is that evaluation that will allow teams to make the right decision.

[TheKilo]

I would also take Cassel over an unproven rookie. A big part of his success was the program he was in and the players surrounding him' date=' but you can't ******** your way through an entire NFL season.[/quote']

 

Helps when you have all-PRo WRs and an easy schedule.

[TheKilo]

DETROIT LIONS - Probably the most likely destination, Lions will trade for Cassel and draft Andre Smith at #1.

 

MINNESOTA VIKINGS — Really think they will do everything to give the job to Jackson.

 

TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS — Garcia is a more than adequate stopgap, someone might fall to them (Sanchez)

 

SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS – Shaun Hill needs a chance to win this job, they were a respectable team the 2nd half of the year after Singletary took over.

 

ST. LOUIS RAMS — I think this is a potential fit, but I think they'll try to go with Bulger again and draft defense

 

CHICAGO BEARS — They will go with Orton/Grossman again

 

NEW YORK JETS — Favre comes back, or the reins go to Kellen Clemens

 

KANSAS CITY CHIEFS — Pioli isn't dumb - Tyler Thigpen is the choice here.

[See Red]

FYI, most teams try to be two dimensional with their offense.

 

But I'm not giving Cassel any credit whatsoever when he has All-Pros all along his O-Line and Welker and Moss to throw to...sorry.

 

 

 

I thought your defense played awfully well against the Colts. it was your offense that let you down.

 

Why does Cassel get all the credit when the team wins and none of the blame when they lose?

 

He played like crap against Miami, Pittsburgh, and San Diego. IMO the Pats had ONE good win on their schedule all year, and that was Arizona...and that's only because of Arizona's playoff run.

 

He was good against crap teams, bad against good teams, and average against average teams. He s an average NFL QB. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

That wasn't even a good one... Arizona was really struggling at the time, they traveled across the country, they were a warm weather team playing in snow, and they had already clinched their division -- as I mentioned earlier, I can't imagine Arizona wanted anything to do with that game.

 

I know that, looking at the AFC East standings, it looked like one of the better divisions in football, but they benefitted from playing eight games against the two worst divisions in football, then six games within the division. It was a very weak division.

 

By the way, the disaster that was the St. Louis Rams season is not Marc Bulgers fault. They have absolutely no offensive line. And for KC -- Thigpen is better than Matt Cassell.

[TheKilo]

I wouldn't say Thigpen is "better" than Cassel, but it is a lateral move and you don't spend a first and another pick to go to a lateral move.

 

Pioli's too smart for that.

[See Red]

I wouldn't say Thigpen is "better" than Cassel, but it is a lateral move and you don't spend a first and another pick to go to a lateral move.

 

Pioli's too smart for that.

 

I should amend that, I think Thigpen is better going forward than Cassell is. Given a choice between the two, I'd rather have Thigpen as my starting QB.

[Dojji]

How about Tennessee? I could see them still thinking Vince Young is their man going forward, but I could also see them thinking that Cassel is a guy who has demonstrated that he's OK standing behind a more talented QB and that Vince is rapidly developing into a serious headcase, enough to threaten their push for a trophy or that they're too close to the prize to let Young screw things up again.

 

Think of it kind of like Manny Fernandez on the Bruins. In principle you really don't pay what Chiarelli paid for a backup goalie, but Boston's goalie situation is a little unconventional, and for the Niche that MFMF actually fills, which is a starting-capable insurance policy behind Boston's enigmatic starter, he's worth the price. Fernandez plays well himself and he pushes Thomas, which seems to be something Timmy really needs to stay focused. And if Timmy had turned into a pumpkin at any point over the last few months, MFMF could have taken over the starting job himself and the B's would probably still have won more games than they lost.

 

Of course you still run into the same problem, is that really worth two #1's? but Tennessee is right at the height of their playoff peak in the next couple years, and having a good #1a quarterback in case VY flakes out again really could be worth that to them right now. It's a bit of Yankee-think, but when you're close to a championship, overpaying a bit for that little bit extra tends to be something you consider. Collins isn't going to get you to the next level. He just doesn't have the tools. Cassel, especially the Cassel of the last 6 games or so when they really turned him loose, might.

 

 

EDIT: Clarity (probably still needs some)

[TheKilo]

Matt Cassel is not worth two first round draft picks. End of story.

[TheKilo]

I should amend that' date=' I think Thigpen is better going forward than Cassell is. Given a choice between the two, I'd rather have Thigpen as my starting QB.[/quote']

 

I think going forward they are very comparable quarterbacks. Since Aaron Rodgers is better than both of them, I don't want either.

[See Red]

I think going forward they are very comparable quarterbacks. Since Aaron Rodgers is better than both of them' date=' I don't want either. [/quote']

 

I don't blame you -- as with you, I'd gladly take my teams QB, Cutler, over either.

 

In regards to Thigpen vs. Cassell, Thigpen's also on the cheap for the next two years. Thigpen really impressed me when I watched him play -- for a first year starter, that is. He showed flashes that suggest he'll be a good QB in this league. He had some weapons, Gony Gonzalez and Dwayne Bowe, but he certainly wasn't surrounded by the kind of talent that Cassell was. KC could've won some football games but Herm Edwards got way too conservative whenever the Chiefs got a lead.

[CrespoBlows]

The Chiefs 4th quarter offense with an aggressive attack would consist of Tyler Thigpen running in circles, and trying to throw the football wildly into triple coverage.

[See Red]

The Chiefs 4th quarter offense with an aggressive attack would consist of Tyler Thigpen running in circles' date=' and trying to throw the football wildly into triple coverage.[/quote']

 

No worse than run-run-run-punt...

[riverside sluggers]

If the Pats get a 2nd & a 4th, Id be happy with that

[Dojji]

Matt Cassel is not worth two first round draft picks. End of story.

 

Matt Cassel is worth at least one draft pick because he's a surer thing than a QB you could draft in the first round. Also end of story.

[TheKilo]

Matt Cassel is worth at least one draft pick because he's a surer thing than a QB you could draft in the first round. Also end of story.

 

The Pats will get a 1 and a 4 for Matt Cassel. No one has said he won't be worth one but there's no way in hell he's worth two.

[mtbykr]

The Pats will get a 1 and a 4 for Matt Cassel. No one has said he won't be worth one but there's no way in hell he's worth two.

 

I think you're pretty close with that. There is also a chance that he could bring a pick and a player, although with the way the pats love picks it would have to be a great deal.

[Dojji]

The Pats will get a 1 and a 4 for Matt Cassel. No one has said he won't be worth one but there's no way in hell he's worth two.

 

That sounds pretty reasonable. You might get two if a team decides that what they think they see in him might be worth overpaying for, but it'd definitely be an overpay.

[mtbykr]

Cassel officially signs the franchise tender:

 

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/07/cassel-likely-to-remain-in-new-england/

 

Now that QB Matt Cassel has signed his $14.65 million non-exclusive franchise tender — the largest guarantee on a one-year contract in the history of the NFL — some around the league believe it’s 95 percent that he remains in New England.

 

The only way the Patriots would trade Cassel is if they know QB Tom Brady is healthy, and even if they do, the bidder needs to be to Cassel’s liking and offer a contract to his liking, or there’s no deal.

 

That’s not to say it can’t happen. But it’s not going to be easy to make it happen.

[mtbykr]

Mel Kiper, who is usually hibernates throughout the year until draft time, held a conference call...here are some excerpts:

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/02/kiper_likes_cas.html

 

 

"If I were Detroit or Kansas City, I would make that move in a heartbeat. If you’re asking me if I would rather have Matt Cassel or Matthew Stafford or Mark Sanchez, I’d rather have Matt Cassel," Kiper answered.

 

 

“I would say, linebacker, it could fall pretty well for New England. The player I had them taking in the projection I made was Brian Cushing of USC.”

 

Kiper said that Cushing is versatile and could play a lot of different roles in a defense.

[mtbykr]

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/02/patriots_expres.html

 

 

The Patriots have expressed interest in free agent RB Fred Taylor, and it's possible that Taylor could be visiting with the team this week, according to a league source.

 

Shalise Manza Young of the Providence Journal first reported the Patriots' interest today. In the Providence Journal report, the Bills were noted as another team interested in Taylor.

 

The Patriots have Sammy Morris, Laurence Maroney, Kevin Faulk and BenJarvus Green-Ellis under contract at running back. Fullback Heath Evans is a free agent who could return.

 

Taylor, who has played his entire career with the Jaguars, was released Monday.

[Dojji]

End of Maroney in New England?

[mtbykr]

End of Maroney in New England?

 

 

Moroney will be a 2.5mil cap hit...so there's no advantage to ditch him. They will at least bring him to camp and see what happens

[Dojji]

What happens is, Maroney leans tentatively into the D-line again every time he gets the football and goes down for losses or short gains. I haven't seen Maroney really commit to driving down the middle with any kind of authority for two years now. Faulk does it. Jordan does it. Even BJGE *tries*. Maroney doesn't.