Kurt Warner: Hall of Famer?

[TheKilo]

Simple question, very interesting debate. In light of Warner carrying the Cardinals to the Super Bowl this season, can he punch his ticket for Canton?

 

Pros:

 

2x MVP

SB MVP

Super Bowl with 2 teams

Top 5 all time in passer rating

3x Pro Bowler

2x All-Pro

Throws for 300 yds in a higher percentage of games than anyone else

#1 is pass yds/game all time

#2 in all-time completion %

 

Cons:

 

Only 5 or 6 "good" seasons

"System" QB (?)

Bad stretches were really bad (end of STL career, time in NY)

38th in total passing yards

40th in total passing TDs

 

 

He seems to be the NFL's version of Pedro Martinez or Sandy Koufax - his peak period was very, very good but you can easily claim it wasn't long enough to warrant induction. His rate stats are excellent but his counting stats are very lacking.

 

I think he's in - the good years were simply too good to ignore - and this resurgence with Arizona this season has proved he's still a very good QB. If he wins in two weeks, it's a no brainer, but I lean 60/40 putting him in as we speak today.

[Mr Crunchy]

Hes had essentially 3 good years and a ton of mediocrity in between.

im happy for him and i think hes had some of the best games ive ever seen but iasaac bruce and az akhim and marshall faulk and this latest stud,larry fitz(irish ya know) were a nice cast of characters to throw to.

im happy for him but no,he dont make it.

[TheKilo]

The flip side of that coin is how good were the other receivers when they didn't have Warner throwing to them?

[Jasonbay44]

Matt Leinart had Fitz and Boldin and he couldn't get Cardinals to super bowl.

 

IMO he is a hall of famer, he helped get Rams to super bowl, now he's doing it with Cardinals and he has 2 MVP's and some nice stats to go with it.

[BoSox21]

The keys here are that he only had 5 good seasons. He's been too inconsistent to be HOF worthy

[ORS]

Hall of Very Good, but not HOF. If he could have taken the field more regularly between his phenom success in StL and his recent roll in 'Zona, then I think he'd make an interesting case, one that probably gets in, but that void is too big a black mark, IMO.

[See Red]

The bad years were really bad. And he's only done well when his offenses were stacked.

 

I think that game winning drive against the Eagles pretty much sealed it. A Super Bowl win would guarantee it. But I don't think he should be. I'd put Donovan McNabb in before him.

 

The Cardinals got into the playoffs as a result of the Division they play in. They've advanced in the playoffs because they've started playing defense, which has allowed them to run the ball more effectively. I'm not big on Matt Leinart, but I hardly think Kurt Warner is irreplaceable.

[jacksonianmarch]

How many QBs have quarterbacked 3 SB teams, won at least one of them, and earned 2 MVPs and not made the HOF. You could have made a case for him to be the MVP this yr. Yes, his bad yrs were bad, but the championship and the super bowl appearances count for a lot when talking about a QB. He'll get in, not first try, but he'll get in

[jacksonianmarch]

also, Kurt is the kind of guy who needs talent around him. He isnt a player who can take marginal talent and turn them into all pros. He can take all-pro talent and turn it into MVP caliber talent. He makes good players great. But he cant make average players good

[RedSoxRooter]

If he wins this year, I say yes. That's why I'm pulling for him.

[TheKilo]

Even in his "bad" year with the Giants, he was 5-4 and has a passer rating in the mid 80s.

[Mr Crunchy]

Earl Morrall went to the superbowl on 2 teams, lost 1 and got benched before the other.

thats sort of a ******** question because qbs dont leave like the other players do.

That rams offense was unbelieveable but warner is essentially a nothing when it comes to playing outside in real football weather,in a controlled environment hes great,if he plays in the elements he sucks,plus i never want to see his wife again.

both his superbowl games with the rams he was a huge favorite and nearly gagged them both

the greatest show on turf had 17 points against the pats and believe they got 23 against the titans?

in any case

if joe namath is in the hall of fame then i guess this guy deserves consideration but i dont think he gets in unless he wins this one....When you're benched for mark bulger while in your prime you probably arent going to canton.

[rician blast]

also' date=' Kurt is the kind of guy who needs talent around him. He isnt a player who can take marginal talent and turn them into all pros. [/quote']

 

Who can?

 

Brady has played on teams with outstanding talent and, as important, great coaching. Thus he's a mutliple title winner.

 

Manning won a only one title largely due to the fact that the Colts, talent and coaching wise, IMO just have not been that good over the whole of his career.

 

Dan Marino was a great QB, never won a damn thing, mainly cuz his teams sucked.

 

Dilfer won a title, no? He was no great QB, but played for a team with an unreal 'D'

 

It's a team game...f***, Donovan McNab coulda won with the 99 Rams.

[See Red]

Earl Morrall went to the superbowl on 2 teams, lost 1 and got benched before the other.

thats sort of a ******** question because qbs dont leave like the other players do.

That rams offense was unbelieveable but warner is essentially a nothing when it comes to playing outside in real football weather,in a controlled environment hes great,if he plays in the elements he sucks,plus i never want to see his wife again.

both his superbowl games with the rams he was a huge favorite and nearly gagged them both

the greatest show on turf had 17 points against the pats and believe they got 23 against the titans?

in any case

if joe namath is in the hall of fame then i guess this guy deserves consideration but i dont think he gets in unless he wins this one....When you're benched for mark bulger while in your prime you probably arent going to canton.

 

Now come on, Crunchy -- being better than Joe Namath would qualify half the starting QB's in the league for the hall of fame.

[TheKilo]

If the Cardinals don't win on Sunday I think he needs one more MVP caliber season or two more "very good" seasons to make it for sure.

 

Like I said in the OP, I'm 60/40 putting him in right now....but he can't fall off a cliff.

[redsoxrules]

Now come on' date=' Crunchy -- being better than Joe Namath would qualify half the starting QB's in the league for the hall of fame.[/quote']

 

Agree, Joe Namath sucked

 

career QB rating at 65

 

IMO he didn't even have 1 good year in his career

 

his best year was 4007 yards passing , 26TD 28INT

[BoSox21]

Namath is in for historical reasons

[yankees228]

Who can?

 

Brady has played on teams with outstanding talent and, as important, great coaching. Thus he's a mutliple title winner.

 

Manning won a only one title largely due to the fact that the Colts, talent and coaching wise, IMO just have not been that good over the whole of his career.

 

Dan Marino was a great QB, never won a damn thing, mainly cuz his teams sucked.

 

Dilfer won a title, no? He was no great QB, but played for a team with an unreal 'D'

 

It's a team game...f***, Donovan McNab coulda won with the 99 Rams.

 

In my opinion Peyton Manning does exactly what jackson was talking about. He gets the most out of all the players around him.

[BoSox21]

Peyton Manning just had what will probably be the most underrated season he'll have in his career, despite the fact that he won MVP. To do what he did with the Colts considering the O-line injuries they had all year, the fact that they had no running game, the fact that Marvin Harrison became a shell of his former self and the fact that they couldn't play defense, he showed by he's a HOF quarterback. Kurt Warner would've sunk under those conditions and on top of it, he's a climate QB

[TheKilo]

Well, Peyton Manning also has the luxury of playing in a dome...

[BoSox21]

Right, but he's had good games in bad weather. The second Kurt Warner got the experience of playing in the swirling winds of the Meadowlands, he went to s***

[rician blast]

In my opinion Peyton Manning does exactly what jackson was talking about. He gets the most out of all the players around him.

 

Not sure what your point is, as I had said "who can win without players around them?" and then gave examples of players who've won multiple titles because of great supporting casts and coaching, a player who won despite his lack of ability because he had a true TEAM and his coaches did an outstanding job, a player who only one even though he is considered great but his teams/coaches haven't been consistently great and a player who never won because, despite his ability, his teams sucked.

[BoSox21]

I think the entire point is, take away Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt and Marshall Faulk from the Rams teams and see how good Warner is

 

Take away Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin from the Cards and see how good Warner is

 

He had average offensive weapons in New York and he sucked

[TheKilo]

So why not extend that argument to WRs and RBs then?

 

If Emmitt Smith didn't have an awesome Oline blocking for him, he sucked balls (see his time in AZ).

If Randy Moss doesn't have a good QB throwing him the ball, he sucked balls (Oakland)

 

How far do you want to extend this argument?

 

Kurt Warner, as a Giant, was 5-4 with a QB rating of 86.5. Not great, but not ridiculously awful, either.

[BoSox21]

Not HOF-worthy either

[TheKilo]

His other seasons are.

 

His one atrocious season was 2002 in STL, when they started 0-6.

 

And you didn't even address my other points, bang-up job.

[schillingouttheks]

His other seasons are.

 

His one atrocious season was 2002 in STL, when they started 0-6.

 

And you didn't even address my other points, bang-up job.

 

Dante Culpepper, as seen as his career progressed, seems to have benefited from having Randy Moss, no? Unless I'm missing something....

[rician blast]

I think the entire point is, take away Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt and Marshall Faulk from the Rams teams and see how good Warner is

 

Take away Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin from the Cards and see how good Warner is

 

He had average offensive weapons in New York and he sucked

 

Ok, so take away Belicheck and the Pats offensive coordinator(s), and key members of the pats front line and receiving corps and where does that leave Brady?

 

You can apply this concept to any QB. Their stats and regular season and post season success are impacted by a miriad of variables, including their coaching, the system they play in, the talent level of their teammates, team chemistry, the relative strength of their opponents and their own innate ability.

[TheKilo]

Dante Culpepper' date=' as seen as his career progressed, seems to have benefited from having Randy Moss, no? Unless I'm missing something....[/quote']

 

So how do you explain Moss's tenure in Oakland?

[redsoxrules]

So how do you explain Moss's tenure in Oakland?

 

he didn't give a s*** in oakland , he quit on his team