Ortiz quietly being shopped?

[BSN07]

http://www.boston.com/sports/ot/2008/11/the_truth_hurts.html

 

Don't lose your minds over this. Just something to discuss.

[TheKilo]

Theo Epstein is nothing if not logical, so we wouldn't be shocked to learn that the Red Sox’ bloodless general manager is quietly shopping David Ortiz this off-season. We have no hard evidence to support this suspicion, mind you. It’s just that, if certain things fall into place during the hot stove season, it makes more sense than some of us wish to admit.

 

/thread

[Dipre]

I seriously seriously doubt it...... then again, everything's possible......

[BSN07]

I know they don't have proof. Nothing else is going on, so I thought it might make a good topic.

[TheKilo]

Oh I know.

 

I just don't think you can get much for him...

[BSN07]

Oh I know.

 

I just don't think you can get much for him...

 

Really?

 

 

Well I will admit he's only valuable to a AL team. And I don't see too many teams in need of a DH. So you have a point.

[Cocos Disciples]

Well he's at his lowest value in a few years, I don't think it would be wise to deal him now.

[BoSox21]

one injury-plagued season and all of a sudden, he's worth less than s***....amazing town...

[Cocos Disciples]

Uhh he's still worth something, but not as much as he has been. Why trade a guy below value?

[naptownsoxfan]

never hurts to gauge a guys market value

[VA Sox Fan]

I've officially lost my mind over this. Unthinkable.

[BoSox21]

Uhh he's still worth something' date=' but not as much as he has been. Why trade a guy below value?[/quote']

 

why trade him at all?

[Cocos Disciples]

why trade him at all?

 

I don't think they are going to. Maybe if the Sox were not championship contenders, there would be more of a possibility.

[TheKilo]

one injury-plagued season and all of a sudden' date=' he's worth less than s***....amazing town...[/quote']

 

Strawman

[Gom]

Strawman

 

I don't see how this is a "strawman". You like to pull that term out...but the thread raises the question of whether Ortiz is being shopped or not. Bosox21 states that he thinks its ridiculous to think about trading him due to one bad season.

 

Seems like a valid point....o king of Straw.

[TheKilo]

I don't see how this is a "strawman". You like to pull that term out...but the thread raises the question of whether Ortiz is being shopped or not. Bosox21 states that he thinks its ridiculous to think about trading him due to one bad season.

 

Seems like a valid point....o king of Straw.

 

No, the strawman is him saying this town is accusing Ortiz of being "less than s***". No one is arguing, or has mentioned that point.

 

If he's pointing to something no one has mentioned or argued, it is a strawman.

 

Or would irrelevant work better?

[SCM33]

Shopped around? We wouldnt get much for him at this point, and Im being serious. First of all, where would he be traded?

 

The whole NL is outta the question.

The AL east is pretty much outta the question.

CHW have Thome and Konerko.

Minnesota is not a buyer for his salary, plus the history.

CLE might make sense, if they give up on Pronk...but why would you trade him to another team you almost yearly have to contend with for the playoffs.

KC....no

DET might make sense, but I think Cabrera is next in line for their DHing duties.

LAA is another team that might make sense, but Vlad is creeping up on DH'ing, and they are one of our big rivals....so no.

TEX...Salty, Boggs, Hamilton, Murphy, Bradley are already in a battle for playing time, Ortiz would just complicate it more.

OAK....no

SEA....maybe, they need a lot of help offensively, this maybe makes sense.

 

So, Seattle and Detroit might make sense.....and Texas might make sense if they sort out that mess between their OF's and DH's before adding another one.

[Dojji]

Don't write the NL off too quickly. Ortiz is not an incompetent 1Bman. If the knee is back healthy, who knows?

 

Agreed that the chances are remote however.

[Gom]

No, the strawman is him saying this town is accusing Ortiz of being "less than s***". No one is arguing, or has mentioned that point.

 

If he's pointing to something no one has mentioned or argued, it is a strawman.

 

Or would irrelevant work better?

 

I don't think it's irrelevant at all, actually. Epstein has a history of running out players who are at the end of their productive runs...see Manny & Nomar. Due largely in part to Ortiz's injury IMO, his productivity has dropped. Now the fans and FO are comtemplating sending the most potent bat [arguably] in the lineup away.

 

I think what Bosox21 is saying is that one sub-par season, and Boston is ready to throw in the towel on one of the greatest hitters in recent baseball history.

 

Let it be known that I think it's a good idea to pursue it, but I don't think it's an irrelevant point. Anyways, I'm just arguing to argue...no real need to go further with this.

[CrespoBlows]

I don't think it's irrelevant at all' date=' actually. Epstein has a history of running out players who are at the end of their productive runs...see Manny & Nomar. Due largely in part to Ortiz's injury IMO, his productivity has dropped. Now the fans and FO are comtemplating sending the most potent bat [arguably'] in the lineup away.

 

This is an unsubstantiated claim. There is no evidence from any front office official that would suggest the Red Sox are contemplating Ortiz. As odd as it is that you formed that opinion by reading that one article, it's even less rationale to say that "the fans are contemplating sending...." How do you arrive at that conclusion? Do you just make idiotic statements to stir debate?

 

You also try to lump Ortiz in with two malcontents who threatened to sit out with injuries while during their tenure with the Red Sox.

 

I think what Bosox21 is saying is that one sub-par season, and Boston is ready to throw in the towel on one of the greatest hitters in recent baseball history.

 

Bosox's argument is a strawman, because he is describing an opinion that was never brought up. No one has said that Ortiz is "worth less than s***," but they have claimed that his value has gone down. I don't see how anyone can't come to this conclusion. Ortiz is coming off wrist surgery, hit his fewest total of HR's in some time, played awful in October, and is on the wrong side of 30. Does anyone believe that David Ortiz is as highly valued as he was after the 2007 World Series?

 

Let it be known that I think it's a good idea to pursue it, but I don't think it's an irrelevant point. Anyways, I'm just arguing to argue...no real need to go further with this.

 

Yes, and it's getting rather boring.

[Gom]

This is an unsubstantiated claim. There is no evidence from any front office official that would suggest the Red Sox are contemplating Ortiz. As odd as it is that you formed that opinion by reading that one article' date=' it's even less rationale to say that "the fans are contemplating sending...." How do you arrive at that conclusion? Do you just make idiotic statements to stir debate? [/quote']

Go back and read the original article. The entire article is based on an unsubstantiated claim...rather a theory or opinion.

You also try to lump Ortiz in with two malcontents who threatened to sit out with injuries while during their tenure with the Red Sox.

Yes.

Bosox's argument is a strawman, because he is describing an opinion that was never brought up. No one has said that Ortiz is "worth less than s***," but they have claimed that his value has gone down. I don't see how anyone can't come to this conclusion. Ortiz is coming off wrist surgery, hit his fewest total of HR's in some time, played awful in October, and is on the wrong side of 30. Does anyone believe that David Ortiz is as highly valued as he was after the 2007 World Series?

Where no one picked the words "worth less than s***" in the article, the sentiment was understood by me. I think what Bosox21 was saying was that people in Boston are quick to forget what a player has done for them and that his value to the team should not be based on one injury-based season. Whether I agree with the sentiment is irrelevent. However, irrespective of Bosox21's choice of words in describing Ortiz, it is a valid point. Would the FO be contemplating [once again, for your reading pleasure and lack of ability to comprehend what you read, no one is saying this is what the FO is doing] moving Ortiz if he had a 2008 that was similar to 2007? I don't think so, but it would be up for debate.

Yes, and it's getting rather boring.

When you add something to this site besides a cool avatar, let me know. Basically, based on your level of intelligence in posting, if I see you disagree with any point that anyone makes, then I know that person is correct.

[BoSox21]

Looking back, it was rather "strawman" of me to imply that people think Ortiz is worth less than s*** now but it infuriates me that because of one injury-plagued season, the idea to trade Ortiz is brought up. Why not debate whether to trade Josh Beckett?

 

If Ortiz hadn't missed 2 months, he would have easily eclipsed 30 HR-100 RBI and thats not even taking into account the discomfort he felt in the wrist upon returning

[rician blast]

I think what Bosox21 was saying was that people in Boston are quick to forget what a player has done for them and that his value to the team should not be based on one injury-based season.

 

What "people"? A writer expressed an idea that possibly, in the interest of making the Red Sox a stronger team in both the short and long-term, the FO might consider moving Ortiz. How does this translate into people forgetting what he has done?

 

This is the typical response to an article that really frustrates some of us...that a writer expresses an opinion or makes a supposition and that some readers apply that idea to all fans.

 

Didn't the writer even imply that no one would forget what he has meant to the team? That'd be more accurate than claiming Sox fans are ready to forget what he's done. At the same time, if it helps the team, many will be on board.

[TheKilo]

 

Where no one picked the words "worth less than s***" in the article, the sentiment was understood by me. I think what Bosox21 was saying was that people in Boston are quick to forget what a player has done for them and that his value to the team should not be based on one injury-based season. Whether I agree with the sentiment is irrelevent. However, irrespective of Bosox21's choice of words in describing Ortiz, it is a valid point. Would the FO be contemplating [once again, for your reading pleasure and lack of ability to comprehend what you read, no one is saying this is what the FO is doing] moving Ortiz if he had a 2008 that was similar to 2007? I don't think so, but it would be up for debate.

 

.

 

It's not up for debate because there is no evidence to point to the FO contemplating to trade Ortiz.

[Dojji]

Any time a prominent veteran player is 2 years or fewer away from the end of his deal there will be trade rumors.

[BoSox21]

Any time a prominent veteran player is 2 years or fewer away from the end of his deal there will be trade rumors.

 

Unless the team is a contender. There were no rumors involving Giambi, Guerrero, Delgado, etc. or even Manny until he acted up.

[Dojji]

Actually the only one about which that was true is Guerrero. Giambi had some rumors, if you counted rumors that the Yankees wanted to dump him. Delgado, same story, remembering that he wasn't hitting that much for the first few months of the season.

[BoSox21]

ok, what about Lowell and Schilling last year? Or hell, even A-Rod?

[Dojji]

Schilling, yes I think there was. Mostly in 2006 when it was becoming clear that the season was going to hell in a handbasket anyway and he might have represented a valuable trade commodity. And we've been talking about trading Lowell since he got here.

 

There were plenty of Lowell rumors in '06 and early '07, culminating in his potential involvement in the proposed Todd Helton trade.

 

Limiting conversation around either player to LAST year is ridiculous as both were free agents.

 

A-Rod is a special case because of the size of his contract. But doesn't anyone else remember all the A-Rod for Erven Santana rumors back in 2006 after his "off" year?

[BoSox21]

Schilling, yes I think there was. Mostly in 2006 when it was becoming clear that the season was going to hell in a handbasket anyway and he might have represented a valuable trade commodity. And we've been talking about trading Lowell since he got here.

 

A-Rod is a special case because of the size of his contract. But doesn't anyone else remember all the A-Rod for Erven Santana rumors?

 

Really? There were rumors of trading Mike Lowell and Curt Schilling when the Sox led wire to wire last year? I guess I wasn't paying attention...