2008 Patriots Game Thread

[MANNYHOF24]

That's right' date=' I forgot. This is a forum full of Sox fans. Opinions of a player must never change based on actual performance, at least if the performance is good. If a player once sucked it must therefore follow that he will always suck. Logically. Definitely.[/quote']

 

Wow, seriously? Tom Brady is this teams quarterback. Period. It's unbelievable that you can forget how great he was after a few very good games by Matt Cassel. If Brady is healthy, he is the better option. There is no debate. Cassel will be else where playing solid, but not great. Let's remember how great his weapons are, and then remember how Godly Tom Brady was with these same weapons.

[Cocos Disciples]

Yeahhhhhh I'm gonna have to go with the consensus here. Brady is better. Much better.

[TheKilo]

On what planet do you consider trading Brady in favor of Matt Cassel?

 

I'm still trying to figure that one out.

[Dojji]

On what planet do you consider trading Brady in favor of Matt Cassel?

 

I'm still trying to figure that one out.

 

On the planet where Cassel is better over the last 3 weeks at using the same weapons than Brady was over the last half of last season. Frankly, Cassel has more raw tools than Brady had at the start of his run, and he's refining those tools in record time. He still doesn't have Brady's quick decisions, but he makes up for it with mobility and escapability like Brady's never had and never will, and pretty nice accuracy on the run

 

Brady has never thrown for 400 yards in two consecutive games, and Cassel just did that and with a cherry on top -- a rushing TD in each game. Has anyone ever thrown for 400 and ran for a TD in two consecutive weeks?

 

I know, I know, 2 weeks

 

Someone I read this morning made an interesting point too about Cassel. Due to the nature of his playing career (or lack thereof) what we have is a guy with all the tools to be a full-time NFL starting quarterback but an absolutely pristine physical history with no significant injuries since high school.

 

A 27 year old QB, playing lights out, a quick study who adjusts quickly to a new situation, with every possible QB tool (he's even got the deep ball to Moss going), and with no significant wear issues? I think that can compete with a going on 32 year old Brady with known shoulder, ankle and a knee ligament problem that has now officially involved multiple surgeries.

 

Frankly I happen to think that Cassel came at the perfect time to set up a post-Brady plan, because TB isn't going to last forever and the Patriots can't afford to ride that ship down to the bottom the way they rode it to the top. Not when they have what looks like a sterling alternative.

[TheKilo]

On the planet where Cassel is better over the last 3 weeks at using the same weapons than Brady was over the last half of last season. Frankly, Cassel has more raw tools than Brady had at the start of his run, and he's refining those tools in record time. He still doesn't have Brady's quick decisions, but he makes up for it with mobility and escapability like Brady's never had and never will, and pretty nice accuracy on the run

 

Brady has never thrown for 400 yards in two consecutive games, and Cassel just did that and with a cherry on top -- a rushing TD in each game. Has anyone ever thrown for 400 and ran for a TD in two consecutive weeks?

 

I know, I know, 2 weeks

 

Someone I read this morning made an interesting point too about Cassel. Due to the nature of his playing career (or lack thereof) what we have is a guy with all the tools to be a full-time NFL starting quarterback but an absolutely pristine physical history with no significant injuries since high school.

 

A 27 year old QB, playing lights out, a quick study who adjusts quickly to a new situation, with every possible QB tool (he's even got the deep ball to Moss going), and with no significant wear issues? I think that can compete with a going on 32 year old Brady with known shoulder, ankle and a knee ligament problem that has now officially involved multiple surgeries.

 

Frankly I happen to think that Cassel came at the perfect time to set up a post-Brady plan, because TB isn't going to last forever and the Patriots can't afford to ride that ship down to the bottom the way they rode it to the top. Not when they have what looks like a sterling alternative.

 

So to be clear...are you advocating that the New England Patriots trade Tom Brady this offseason?

[Dojji]

So to be clear...are you advocating that the New England Patriots trade Tom Brady this offseason?

 

Not exactly. More I'm advocating that a trade of Brady be considered a potential option to inform us as we watch Cassel for the rest of the season and as we watch Brady progress with his therapy of that major knee injury. Mostly I'm just trying to shake people out of their complacency and get them to really take another look at a situation that has changed.

 

You know what a sucker for young talent I am, and the NFL is very much a league of "what have you done for me lately?" I just want to see the possibility considered in light of Cassel's accomplihsments and at least properly analyzed before it's discarded.

 

This isn't last year's Matt Cassel anymore. It isn't even Week 6's Matt Cassel anymore. Those versions of the quarterback are no match for Brady but this one, the one we saw for the last 3 weeks, just might be. And I'm definitely intrigued by the fact that Cassel has NOT seen the bruising and battering of being a major college player or an NFL starter up to this point and what that might mean for his longevity now compared to Brady's longevity.

 

When you start looking 3-4 years into the future, keeping Brady over Cassel wasn't even a slam dunk in Week 6.

[TheKilo]

That's a decision that is going to have to be made soon, however, probably faster than the Pats would like - I'm sure they'd love a couple more months to track Brady's rehab before decided what to do with Cassel.

 

I don't think they franchise Cassel simply because it ties up too much money for next year.

[Dojji]

When does Brady's current contract expire?

 

How long would we be paying 2 starting QB's if we did re-sign Matt Cassel and not trade Brady?

[TheKilo]

Well, Cassel is a UFA after this season, you place the franchise tag on him and you're paying him $14 million+ for next season.

 

Brady's contract runs through the 2010 season.

 

Seems counterproductive to pay both, even for one year, with the other holes on the team (LB and secondary)

[Dojji]

I'd say the problems we're having at LB and secondary are going to be solved through the draft rather than free agency, so I'm not sure I agree, but what I do agree on is not paying 2 QB's to be the starter.

 

Thing is I really don't know how Brady's going to react coming off that knee injury and he was struggling with a different injury before he even ran into knee trouble, so speculating that Brady may be near the decline phase isn't absurd. With that uncertainty cutting bait with Brady and moving on to the younger model isn't totally insane -- sometimes it makes sense to leap too soon rather than too late.

[TheKilo]

That's true but the question is how much are you willing to pay Cassel to find your answer?

[Dojji]

I think the real question is a subtler one, and that's which version of Cassel you're going to get next year after all the hooplah dies down.

 

If he's anywhere near the version of Cassel we've been seeing, who uses all his weapons in a near-Brady-like manner, is elusive out of the pocket, runs well for yardage, and throws on the run with excellent accuracy, you don't throw that away for nothing. You can't. Because that guy is probably better than either Manning brother.

 

If you get the more terrestrial Cassel that you guys seem to be seeing who's only pretty good, then you stick with Brady and just try to get a couple of good picks out of the successful experiment

 

If Cassel continues to play at this level or anywhere near it for the remainder of the season, there's going to be a lot of voices clamoring to let Tom Brady go enjoy his injury-riddled decline for some other team and ride the new wave upward.

[See Red]

I think the real question is a subtler one, and that's which version of Cassel you're going to get next year after all the hooplah dies down.

 

If he's anywhere near the version of Cassel we've been seeing, who uses all his weapons in a near-Brady-like manner, is elusive out of the pocket, runs well for yardage, and throws on the run with excellent accuracy, you don't throw that away for nothing. You can't. Because that guy is probably better than either Manning brother.

 

You're posting privileges in this thread should be revoked because you're an idiot.

 

He just torched two of the worst pass defenses in the league and suddenly he's better than the Manning brothers? It's debatable whether Brady is even better than either of the Manning brothers.

 

13 TD's and 8 picks and you're making plans to attend his HOF induction ceremony. Out of 11 games he's had about 3 good ones, and the rest he's been either bad, or about what you would expect from a backup. And that's giving him the Broncos game as a good one, when he was actually pretty mediocre.

[TheKilo]

I think the Pats should definitely let Brady go in favor of Cassel.

[See Red]

I think the Pats should definitely let Brady go in favor of Cassel.

 

As do I.

 

I'm sure there's a WR on the roster than makes Moss expendable too.

[Dojji]

You're posting privileges in this thread should be revoked because you're an idiot.

 

Thank you for your meaningful contributions to this thread... whatever they may be.

 

We must be watching different games. Look, even if the defenses he was throwing against were bad, his accomplishments were still above what you'd expect. To the point that what he did made history.

 

If the defense was worth a gooddamn we'd be something like 9-2 right now.

[YanksHater213]

I get what Dojji is saying, but it's just impractical. Believe me, I've gone through many situations in my mind where we can get both, blah blah blah...

 

You don't get rid of TFB for Cassel, no matter which way you slice it. The ideal situation would be that Cassel would stay and sit behind Brady until he starts to decline. But it's not gonna happen, some team like the Lions or Vikings will throw more than enough money at him. There are too many teams in need of a QB for him to sit behind Brady.

[Dojji]

Actually I think that even if he does move on Cassel should have enough leverage to avoid bad situations like the Lions (seriously, the LIONS?) and get a job with a pretty good team if he plays this offseason right.

 

Keep an eye on the Eagles. McNabb is struggling and the backup ain't cutting it but the staff around them is pretty talented. If their FO believes in their offensive weapons, going and picking up a guy like Cassel would make some sense for them

 

 

You don't get rid of TFB for Cassel, no matter which way you slice it.

 

I get this sentiment. I really do. Thing is I approached this season worrying about Brady even before he actually was lost for the season, based on a trend I was starting to see in the second half of last season where incidental injuries were beginning to accumulate and hurt his performance. That's where long, slow, painful, injury-riddled declines come from, and Brady's an immobile quarterback with an aging O-line so he's a prime candidate. He's also on the far side of 30 so it's time to start thining about such things as heirs and replacements, or at least about injury insurance.

 

That's why that notion of Cassel and his squeaky clean injury history, escapability in the pocket and no shortage of tools, coming into his own and Bledsoeing Brady appeals to me. It puts us back on the upside again instead of having to watch a great player slowly fall to pieces

[See Red]

Thank you for your meaningful contributions to this thread... whatever they may be.

 

We must be watching different games. Look, even if the defenses he was throwing against were bad, his accomplishments were still above what you'd expect. To the point that what he did made history.

 

If the defense was worth a gooddamn we'd be something like 9-2 right now.

 

If you're going to say I didn't contribute, at least respond to my point which was that he's really only had three good games, and in one of them he wasn't even all that good. Take away those three games he has something like 4 TD's and 7 INT's in 8 games.

 

And even the games in which the defense sucked, you'd have had a much better chance in if you had a QB who, outside of two games, had proven capable of winning games as opposed to not losing them.

[Dojji]

If you're going to say I didn't contribute' date=' at least respond to my point which was that he's really only had three good games, and in one of them he wasn't even all that good. Take away those three games he has something like 4 TD's and 7 INT's in 8 games.[/quote']

 

So we've established that if you take away a quarterback's 3 best games he looks a lot worse than he did before. Bravo. I could take away the first 2-3 games and build the case the other way since Cassel has clearly developed since then, but I'm taking the whole package so I expect you to as well.

 

Those 3 games were 3 of the last 4 games though, and the 4th game, @ IND, was a game that he could have won except for a very stupid penalty that set him up for a loss. It was also a game that we should have won on defense.

 

Also, I refer you to a poster at SoSH who rebuts your post a whole lot better than I can.

 

You can call them his 3 best games, but 'good' is an incredibly subjective term. He has 4 games with a QB rating of 103 or higher, 6 games at 89 or higher. Why are 3 of those games good (as long as we are using terms with no obvious meaning, lets just call those 3 games fantastic...because if he performed like that every single time out, he'd be beyond good, he'd be arguably the best QB of all time), while the rest aren't?

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=38483&view=findpost&p=2011387

 

If we go with the largest number, 6, that's 6 out f 11 games that are well above league average at quarterback and that's counting those first 3 "baby steps" games where the training wheels were still on. He's had 2 games, maybe 3, where he looks better than Brady, but those aren't his only "good" games.

 

And even the games in which the defense sucked, you'd have had a much better chance in if you had a QB who, outside of two games, had proven capable of winning games as opposed to not losing them.

 

That's a pretty ridiculous thing to say when you're talking about a winning football team that has 3 injured backs and has most of its wins on the strength of the throwing game.

 

You detractors really need to update your talking points. Cassel hasn't been about "managing the football game" since about Week 5.

[Mr Crunchy]

cassell has made himself 8 figures for next year by playing outstanding football,hes not managing games,hes throwing for 400 yrds and running for 50.

his mistakes are way down, he has taken over this offense and has confidence both running and throwing.

another sign that bb has a tremendous grasp on who can do what on the field given the chance.

no team uses their 53 man roster as effectively as the pats but with lil or no running game they really dont look like a team capable of advancing very far into january...plus their defense really sucks.

[See Red]

So we've established that if you take away a quarterback's 3 best games he looks a lot worse than he did before. Bravo. I could take away the first 2-3 games and build the case the other way since Cassel has clearly developed since then' date=' but I'm taking the whole package so I expect you to as well.[/quote']

 

I'm absolutely taking the entire package, which is why I put weight on the game's in which he's played at a backup level and who benefitted from a system in which he can check down all game and allow his WR's to make yards after catch, which Welker and Moss are some of the best in the league at doing.

 

Those 3 games were 3 of the last 4 games though, and the 4th game, @ IND, was a game that he could have won except for a very stupid penalty that set him up for a loss. It was also a game that we should have won on defense.

 

Also, I refer you to a poster at SoSH who rebuts your post a whole lot better than I can.

 

 

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=38483&view=findpost&p=2011387

 

If we go with the largest number, 6, that's 6 out f 11 games that are well above league average at quarterback and that's counting those first 3 "baby steps" games where the training wheels were still on. He's had 2 games, maybe 3, where he looks better than Brady, but those aren't his only "good" games.

 

Those 3 games were against the 25th, 26th, and 28th best passing defenses in the league. #25 being, of course, the worst defense I've had the displeasure of watching on a week to week basis -- and who just got torched by Jamarcus freakin' Russell.

 

He's gotten better, no doubt about it. But he needs to do it against a team that's proven they can stop the pass before I'll be sold that he's anything more than a capable back-up QB in this league.

 

And QB Rating is a deceiving stat. We're not going to find a common ground here -- you consider a game in which a QB racks up completion % and yardage because his WR's can run with a ball a good game, I consider it something that any QB in the NFL could do if that's what was asked of them. It's great for moving the ball down field, it's not great for putting up points and getting the ball into the endzone, which is the point of offense. The Patriots are in a situation where there combination of talent, and the schedule they've played (which is plain awful) allows

 

 

 

That's a pretty ridiculous thing to say when you're talking about a winning football team that has 3 injured backs and has most of its wins on the strength of the throwing game.

 

You detractors really need to update your talking points. Cassel hasn't been about "managing the football game" since about Week 5.

 

Please, quit acting like the Patriots running game is non-existant when it's in the top 1/3 of the league in yardage and average. He was managing the game against the Broncos... I'd be shocked if he threw more than 3 balls 10+ yards.

 

He's not playing at Tom Brady's level, he's not playing at the Manning brothers' level, he's been about average, what you would expect from somebody throwing to the guy's he's throwing to.

[ARod2212]

So he threw for yards while his team was losing big and in a shootout game. Wow, isn't that amazing? You know what Tom Brady did? Set the record for most touchdown passes in a season and won 18 games in a row.

[TheKilo]

Brady will be 32 to start next season, that's not the "far side" of 30, either.

[mtbykr]

Originally Posted by schillingouttheks

No excuse for what Light did. I don't even understand why Crowder was ejected... he didn't do anything that doesn't happen during any other game.

 

3-4 game suspension for Light probably.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtkybr

Conspiracy

 

 

 

What does this mean? Especially considering I was nowhere near the board during this discussion.

[mtbykr]

!!!!!!!

 

Collusion against the PATRIOTS!

 

 

I didn't post a thought either way, just a link to the article. We all know everyone is a fan of some team, and I expect most NFL execs to be fans of NY teams considering that's where the office is. It is a little strange though (if true) to have top NFL officials celebrating with a team on the road....just doesn't look good for the whole 'impartiality' thing.

 

If this is true, and it had happened against the colts instead of the pats.....Bill Polian would have broken into the NFL offices with a shotgun ala Bobcat Goldthwait in 'Scrooged'

[mtbykr]

I have to ask: Now that he's got his feet under him is it possible that Cassel might even be as good or better than Brady?

 

 

NO.

 

 

Cassel has done a better job than most of us expected. However to say he is even in the same league as Brady is just dumb. Cassel will earn, provided he keeps this up, a good paycheck this offseason...but it will be with another team. The pats won't trade one of the greatest QB's of all time, in his prime, for a QB who has performed well for part of a season.

[Dojji]

Brady will be 32 to start next season' date=' that's not the "far side" of 30, either.[/quote']

 

It can be, in football. Especially for an immobile QB who's starting to collect injuries to critical areas of his body (ankle, knee, shoulder).

 

Brady will be playing at age 37 or 38 but how well is a very open question.

 

Those 3 games were against the 25th, 26th, and 28th best passing defenses in the league.

 

Yes, that is the sort of team a good QB needs to be able to pick apart. And so the ability to put up fantastic numbers against bad defenses does tell us something, even if not as much as putting up the same line against a great defensive team.

 

While the more surprising story would be if he couldn't put up solid numbers against a bad defensive team, the numbers he actually put up are several steps beyond "solid" in those games.

[Dojji]

So he threw for yards while his team was losing big and in a shootout game. Wow' date=' isn't that amazing? You know what Tom Brady did? Set the record for most touchdown passes in a season and won 18 games in a row.[/quote']

 

So what are you saying, because the defense sucks we should downgrade Cassel?

 

if the defense could hold on a friggin' third and very long we would have won both the Jets game and the Colts game. A lot of players get the blame for not pulling out the win but in both cases Cassel isn't one of those players.

[Dojji]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Cassel-making-us-forget-Brady-No-way;_ylt=AlmaEJL12IniIn1f4zSB1bpDubYF?urn=top,124512

 

Pretty balanced, if moderately satirical, take on the question I'm trying to ask.

 

Of course, whichever of Brady or Cassel we let go we need to find a way to make dang sure he doesn't become a Jet.