Yanks acquire Nady, Marte from Bucs for 4 prospects .

[Cocos Disciples]

Wow, how crazy would a: Schilling, Webb, Overbay, Spivey for Soriano, Johnson deal be?

[yankees228]

Great research!

 

Two points:

 

1) The proposed trade wasn't just Soriano + Johnson for Schilling:

 

 

 

Junior Spivey was an All Star who received MVP votes in 2002. "Lesser" AAA players included Lyle Overbay and Brandon Webb. The proposal wasn't necessarily as lopsided as the two-for-one you suggest would appear.

 

2) I've actually got nothing against Yankees trades until 2005...:dunno:

 

I regret not expanding on my previous post. I honestly did not mean to mislead people by making it look it was just for Schilling, although I know it looked like that.

 

Even though Spivey had a good 2002 he was coming off a subpar 2003 so I'm not sure how highly regarded he was at the time.

 

Also, it only said the Diamondbacks were only considering adding those "lesser players", not that they were definitely on the table. It doesn't mention names in the article, but I'm assuming you have your own sources.

 

Lastly, I'm only pointing out that Cashman wasn't always getting the best of others GM's.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Even though Spivey had a good 2002 he was coming off a subpar 2003 so I'm not sure how highly regarded he was at the time.

 

Also, it only said the Diamondbacks were only considering adding those "lesser players", not that they were definitely on the table. It doesn't mention names in the article, but I'm assuming you have your own sources.

 

Nor did I say that Webb and Overbay were necessarily the "lesser" players--I merely mention them, remembering that both were involved in trade rumors.

 

Spivey was pretty well regarded back then. His "subpar" 2003 included 13 HR in only 408 PA, not bad for a good-fielding middle infielder. He trailed off in September 2003, but his second half stats almost mirrored his first half...I didn't notice the decline at the time. :dunno:

 

 

Lastly, I'm only pointing out that Cashman wasn't always getting the best of others GM's.

 

Concur. Only since 2005, AFAIK. But it's been pretty evident since then. :thumbdown

[yankees228]

Fair enough, I think we've probably exhausted this part of the argument. My only point was that I believe that the Yankees offer was better than the one in which he was obtained.

 

As for all the trades made since 2005, it's just tough to continue to debate it considering it's pure speculation on the part of both sides. I must say though, I do see your point and I respect it, I just happen to disagree (like I said though, that may be the biased part of me).

[ORS]

My only point was that I believe that the Yankees offer was better than the one in which he was obtained.

It was better, but the Diamondbacks had to give up more to get more. It's a bit disingenuous to just call attention to the "more" on the Yankee side of the equation without acknowledging the "more" on the Phoenix side.

[yankees228]

It was better' date=' but the Diamondbacks had to give up more to get more. It's a bit disingenuous to just call attention to the "more" on the Yankee side of the equation without acknowledging the "more" on the Phoenix side.[/quote']

 

OK, fair enough, then I'll say that in my opinion doing the deal with the Yankees would have benefited the Diamondbacks more (unless that lesser prospect turned out to be Brandon Webb).

[CrespoBlows]

OK' date=' fair enough, then I'll say that in my opinion doing the deal with the Yankees would have benefited the Diamondbacks more (unless that lesser prospect turned out to be Brandon Webb).[/quote']

 

Considering that the Yankees used Soriano as the key piece in the Rodriguez deal.

[yankees228]

Considering that the Yankees used Soriano as the key piece in the Rodriguez deal.

 

Obviously, but also the Diamondbacks would have been much better off. I know that sounds like a second guess but Soriano and Johnson (who were both dealt that offseason anyway) were both coming a couple of good to very good seasons.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Considering that the Yankees used Soriano as the key piece in the Rodriguez deal.

 

The key to the A-Rod deal was that the Rangers couldn't afford his salary. Everybody knew that Soriano

[Jayhawk Bill]

I missed this one Sunday:

 

It's the "silly season," as many general managers call this time of year when trade rumors fly. It's when GMs who are selling go to contending teams with strong farm systems (read: Tampa Bay, Boston) and ask for multiple top prospects for relief pitchers.

 

The Yankees jumped in with both feet Friday, acquiring outfielder Xavier Nady and lefthanded reliever Damaso Marte from the Pirates for four second-tier prospects. Why Pittsburgh didn't wait for a better deal is anyone's guess, but it took two of the more coveted players off the market.

 

Bold added. The trade remains inexplicable.

[rician blast]

Prior to the trade, Olney was on ESPN and was saying that the price for both Marte and Nady had fallen considerably. As I recall he never said WHY.

 

Assuming the Sox really were pursuing Marte, it would be interesting to see what the Pirates were allegedly asking for in return from the Sox...might give more support to what many of us see as the Yankees consistently giving up less for more.

[BudLight]

The trade may have been inexplicable, but not unheard of:

 

Cubs trade Lou Brock, Jack Spring and Paul Toth to Cardinals for Ernie Broglio, Bobby Shantz and Doug Clemens in 1964

 

Mets trade Tom Seaver to Reds for Doug Flynn, Steve Henderson, Dan Norman, and Pat Zachry.

 

Orioles trade Curt Schilling, Steve Finley and Pete Harnisch to Astros for Glenn Davis in 1991.

 

Phillies trade Ryne Sandberg and Larry Bowa to Cubs for Ivan DeJesus in 1982.

 

Pedro Martinez was traded to Montreal in a straight-up deal for second baseman De

 

July 31, 1997 – The Seattle Mariners trade pitcher Derek Lowe and catcher Jason Varitek to the Boston Red Sox for closer Heathcliff Slocumblino DeShields.

 

July 21, 1988 – The New York Yankees trade outfielder Jay Buhner and prospects Rich Balabon and Troy Evers to the Seattle Mariners for first baseman Ken Phelps

 

July 30, 2004 – The New York Yankees trade pitcher Jose Contreras and cash to the Chicago White Sox for pitcher Esteban Loaiza

[schillingouttheks]

He's stated multiple times that he has no problem with trades up until 2005, where it seems the Yankees have pulled off quite a slew of inexplicable trades.

[BudLight]

He's stated multiple times that he has no problem with trades up until 2005' date=' where it seems the Yankees have pulled off quite a slew of inexplicable trades.[/quote']

 

It wasn't directed at JHB's comments, just a short list of inexplicable trades that have been going on for years in MLB.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Prior to the trade, Olney was on ESPN and was saying that the price for both Marte and Nady had fallen considerably. As I recall he never said WHY.

 

Assuming the Sox really were pursuing Marte, it would be interesting to see what the Pirates were allegedly asking for in return from the Sox...might give more support to what many of us see as the Yankees consistently giving up less for more.

 

Took a few minutes for me to find this:

 

Nady: A similar package, except they want three players instead of four -- one sure thing, one good prospect and a third, more iffy, prospect.

 

Marte: The Pirates seem confident he'll be a Type A free agent, so they're telling teams they need to do better than the first-round pick and sandwich pick they'd get if he walks.

 

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/sports&id=6286350

 

OK...they were asking for a total of

 

One sure thing

 

One good prospect

 

One "iffy" prospect

 

Two prospects better than a first round pick and a sandwich pick

 

That's a total of FIVE players, including a "sure thing," three more first-round types, and one "iffy" prospect.

 

The Pirates accepted from the Yankees Tabata--looking to be an "iffy" prospect after his miserable 2008, but possibly (maybe, optimistically) filling the role of "good prospect/first-round pick"--and three mid-20's AAA/AAAA starting pitchers, none of whom could be expected to contribute to a contending team now or ever. The Pirates accepted a deal from the Yankees that didn't include a "sure thing" and that fell at least two more first-round picks short of what they were rumored to be demanding. The value received by Pittsburgh was maybe a quarter of what it was rumored they were asking. That's not even close--and that explains quotes like these:

 

They also made a move Friday that apparently has general managers across baseball shaking their heads. How did the Yankees manage to bring in a coveted corner outfielder having a career year (Xavier Nady) and arguably the best available reliever (Marte) without having to give the Pirates any major league players? Sure, Jose Tabata could become a star, but who knows?

 

http://www.courant.com/services/newspaper/printedition/sports/hc-skinnystory0728.artjul28,0,3209072.story

 

:dunno:

[Jayhawk Bill]

It wasn't directed at JHB's comments' date=' just a short list of inexplicable trades that have been going on for years in MLB.[/quote']

 

Yes, but your list includes the most infamous eight trades made by 30 teams over 40 years.* My point is that I'm looking at nine consecutive deadline trades by a contending team and every one of them looks to have been, in some respect, a win for the Yankees, with five (counting the recent Nady/Marte trade) looking to be ripoffs.

 

Given that article regarding what the Pirates were asking in talent from other teams, it's looking increasingly as if something is rotten.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Except that you forgot Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen.

[ORS]

What other industries is Pirate ownership involved in? If they are local, my guess is steel. What industry is the cash cow of the Steinbrenners? Ship building, right? No time to look into it at work, but there might be something there.

[BudLight]

What other industries is Pirate ownership involved in? If they are local' date=' my guess is steel. What industry is the cash cow of the Steinbrenners? Ship building, right? No time to look into it at work, but there might be something there.[/quote']

 

 

Unless Cashman and the Yankees FO personnel vacation at Seven Springs Mountain Resort or are avid readers of Ogden Publishing products, I'm not seeing a connection.

[BudLight]

Yes' date=' but your list includes the most infamous eight trades made by 30 teams over 40 years.* My point is that I'm looking at [u']nine consecutive deadline trades[/u] by a contending team and every one of them looks to have been, in some respect, a win for the Yankees, with five (counting the recent Nady/Marte trade) looking to be ripoffs.

 

Given that article regarding what the Pirates were asking in talent from other teams, it's looking increasingly as if something is rotten.

 

There's no argument that this trade is totally one-sided, but of the other deadline trades you mention only Abreu remains with the Yankees. Molina was signed as a backup catcher and would still be the backup had it not been for the injury to Posada. While the Yankees may have been able to pull off these trades since 2005, it has not resulted in any championships.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Except that you forgot Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen.

[Mr Crunchy]

nady dont do much for me but the addition of marte is a coupe and a fairly large hole just got filled.

he was a force in 05 in chitown and a stabilizing influence when they almost fell apart down the stretch,score 1 for cashman..

[26 to 6]

I can't believe you guys are still beating a dead horse. Leave it alone already, are you that bitter that you lost 2 out of 3 this weekend that you have nothing better to do than cry foul over Yankee trades? Give it a rest.

[schillingouttheks]

I can't believe you guys are still beating a dead horse. Leave it alone already' date=' are you that bitter that you lost 2 out of 3 this weekend that you have nothing better to do than cry foul over Yankee trades? Give it a rest.[/quote']

 

Well, it is ********. I think you know that at the very least you got them for next to nothing.

 

And we started bitching before the series started, so no, that's not why.

 

EDIT: Correction, we started bitching the day the series started, but not after we lost.

[TheKilo]

I can't believe you guys are still beating a dead horse. Leave it alone already' date=' are you that bitter that you lost 2 out of 3 this weekend that you have nothing better to do than cry foul over Yankee trades? Give it a rest.[/quote']

 

SHUT UP

[BudLight]

Well, it is ********. I think you know that at the very least you got them for next to nothing.

 

And we started bitching before the series started, so no, that's not why.

 

EDIT: Correction, we started bitching the day the series started, but not after we lost.

 

C'mon Schill you know you started bitching the first time you donned a Red Sox hat

[ORS]

Well, it is ********. I think you know that at the very least you got them for next to nothing.

 

And we started bitching before the series started, so no, that's not why.

 

EDIT: Correction, we started bitching the day the series started, but not after we lost.

Why do you even bother? His response to any and every inquiry into the business practices of the Yankees is the same, jealousy. Correcting him is a waste of time. He a) won't get it, and won't change. It's been 4 years running like this, and it will continue.

[Jayhawk Bill]

There's no argument that this trade is totally one-sided' date=' but of the other deadline trades you mention only Abreu remains with the Yankees. [/quote']

 

True, almost, but the net value of greater MLB performance of the players received was a dozen wins higher than the value of the players traded away, and,

 

Molina was signed as a backup catcher and would still be the backup had it not been for the injury to Posada.

 

Molina is doing quite well as the Yankees full-time catcher...one cannot expect injury or swift decline from a catcher over 35 years old to be unanticipated.

 

While the Yankees may have been able to pull off these trades since 2005, it has not resulted in any championships.

 

Upon reflection, given the Yankees' astronomical payroll and their significant benefit from deadline trades, it is odd that they haven't won for years, isn't it? :dunno:

 

Oh well.

[BudLight]

True, almost, but the net value of greater MLB performance of the players received was a dozen wins higher than the value of the players traded away, and,

 

 

 

Molina is doing quite well as the Yankees full-time catcher...one cannot expect injury or swift decline from a catcher over 35 years old to be unanticipated.

 

 

 

Upon reflection, given the Yankees' astronomical payroll and their significant benefit from deadline trades, it is odd that they haven't won for years, isn't it? :dunno:

 

Oh well.

 

Odd they haven't won, yes - they have been the best team on paper, to bad they don't play the game on paper. The Yankees spend freely because they have the $$, but spending like that guarantees nothing, especially when a good portion of that $$ is spent on players' past performance instead of future potential.

[ORS]

I think JHB's point, either here or in another thread, was that it benefits all teams if the Yankees are competitive (ie in the playoffs). And, I can certainly agree with that. The ratings will be higher as they have the biggest national and international fanbase. In terms of dollars and cents, those higher ratings yield more lucrative national broadcast deals that are shared by all.

 

Some of these moves, for the most part, have been the tipping point that ensured NY's place in the postseason. Now, everyone knows that getting to the postseason does not ensure postseason success. The game changes a bit. The need for very good pitching becomes more pronounced. I think the intent of these moves is to get them in the game, not to hand them anything. Still got to win it.

[Gom]

I think JHB's point, either here or in another thread, was that it benefits all teams if the Yankees are competitive (ie in the playoffs). And, I can certainly agree with that. The ratings will be higher as they have the biggest national and international fanbase. In terms of dollars and cents, those higher ratings yield more lucrative national broadcast deals that are shared by all.

 

Some of these moves, for the most part, have been the tipping point that ensured NY's place in the postseason. Now, everyone knows that getting to the postseason does not ensure postseason success. The game changes a bit. The need for very good pitching becomes more pronounced. I think the intent of these moves is to get them in the game, not to hand them anything. Still got to win it.

You actually believe that the Pirates gave up the players to benefit the Yankees and not to try to improve? That this was somehow sanctioned by MLB? Before I rip you to shreds on this one, I'll give you a chance to backtrack here and elaborate a bit further.

[ORS]

A case for collusion could be made. I've made no specific accusation, so I've got nothing to backtrack from, but I do feel this trade was a bit spurious. The Pirates did not, in any way, get better by this trade. They got crap in return for two marketable players at the trading deadline. You said so yourself. Hell, the draft pick compensation, which the Pirates would have gotten anyway, will be a better haul than that group, only now the Yankees will get it. They got smoked in that deal, and according to some reports (without specific names being included), they were offered more from other contending teams. Something stinks, so it's worthy of discussion, which is all we are doing at this point.

 

As far as you ripping anything to shreds, you can try, but you'll step all over your junk in the process like usual.